[BETA] Destruction Warlock Discussion

[wooters]

well, havoc states strictly single target spells so.. I guess not

anyhow..is it 15 demonfire bolts total, or 15 bolts per random immolated target. tooltip still doesn`t say for sure^^

if its the latter.. I don`t think it necessarily is op. just look at boomkins collapsing stars.. if one manage to hold it up for 10 sec. that's 10k SP worth of damage

[Deleted]

well, havoc states strictly single target spells so.. I guess not

anyhow..is it 15 demonfire bolts total, or 15 bolts at each random target. still doesn`t say^^

It will be 15 bolts total, hence the addition of the random target clause. Those 15 bolts will be spread randomly between the Immolated targets.

[wooters]

It will be 15 bolts total, hence the addition of the random target clause. Those 15 bolts will be spread randomly between the Immolated targets.

they likely will be...but wording is certainly vague. "15 bolts at random immolated enemies" the RANDOM changes little..but making it more viable for them to design the spell so it can actually hit for the full 15 bolts at individual targets

[gruxxar]

If the amount of bolts is the same (15) regardless whether it's one or multiple targets, then it's basically useless for AOE, ain't it? Kinda odd to not have a real AOE option in this tier, seeing it's the last one. On the other hand we do already have F&B & Cataclysm as real AOE talent so maybe it would have been a bit redundant anyways.

[Gaidax]

If the amount of bolts is the same (15) regardless whether it's one or multiple targets, then it's basically useless for AOE, ain't it? Kinda odd to not have a real AOE option in this tier, seeing it's the last one. On the other hand we do already have F&B & Cataclysm as real AOE talent so maybe it would have been a bit redundant anyways.

I wouldn't say useless... Cataclysm + Channel Demonfire can be quite a nice burst AoE for up to 5 targets worth of stuff - that's Cataclysm and 3 bolts of Demonfire per target. Then mop up the shit with RoF (which hopefully won't suck much), Havoc and Shadowburns.

If anything - Fire and Brimstone may become somewhat useless except for really AoE heavy encounters.

But yeah, I'd say Channel Demonfire looks best as a single target or cleave nuke, if it's anything like Spriest Artifact nuke damage-wise, it will be pretty epic and it seems it will be that.

[Dastey]

But yeah, I'd say Channel Demonfire looks best as a single target or cleave nuke, if it's anything like Spriest Artifact nuke damage-wise, it will be pretty epic and it seems it will be that.

The question is if it will even be better than permanent havoc on constant cleave fights. WARNING: Incoming n00b math
Let's look at what the average Havoc will be with Demonfire as the final talent: Demonfire (1500%), Chaos Bolt (275% * 2), Incinerate/Conflagrate (173% avg)
Wreak Havoc as final talent (20 sec): Conflagrate x1.5 (306%), Chaos Bolt (275% * 2), Incinerate x7 (1004%)

So with Demonfire as the final talent we will get a total of 2223 % of spell power on average, whereas with Wreak Havoc we will get only 1860. On top of that Wreak Havoc doesn't increase the single target DPS where as Demonfire does. Demonfire does the equivilant of 10½ incinerate where as it only takes the time of 1½ incinerate. So from a very napkin look at the final talents I really don't think Demonfire will go live in it's current state, since it seems a little too powerfull, especially when combined with Havoc, for a total 3000 % damage in 3 seconds.

[Gaidax]

You assume that Demonfire will be affected by Havoc, I can almost guarantee it won't be - Channel Demonfire is explicitly not a single target only spell - which is what Havoc affects to begin with.

[Kirroth]

But yeah, I'd say Channel Demonfire looks best as a single target or cleave nuke

Yeah. What's important to realize about Wreak Havoc is that it's actually two effects in one. There's the "100% uptime" component for council fights and the "no cooldown" component for when you need to constantly apply it to new targets. If the fight just has occasional adds that die in the untalented Havoc's normal 8s duration then you're probably better off sticking with CDF. Throwing roughly* half its damage at a single add to help nuke it down will still be the better choice on some fights.

Of course, this is all still talking about a spec that isn't even enabled on the Alpha yet. I remember the Devs muttering about making the different specs slightly prefer certain demons again, like in the old days, and we haven't seen any sign of that yet. There's still a lot of adjustments yet to come.

*"Randomly divided" means we'll rarely get a perfect 50/50 split between two targets.

[Baconeggcheese]

You also have to take into account that one has a 12s cd and the other has a 20s cd.

[Deleted]

Oooh, yeah. That question of LoS is going to be big for PvPers, especially the arena folks.

I'd imagine since its a channel it will behave pretty much like Arcane Missile procs, so once you start the channel it will finish even if you LOS.

This meaning interrupting it asap will be a priority, but since its a channel you cannot juke with it so pretty easy to stop within 1s, and make it irrelevant i'm afraid. I can see it obliterating ppl <1800 rating but just like destro now it will struggle above 2k with the same issues of needing a frost mage to allow you to get off any casts.

EDIT: Thinking about how much CC Outlaw rogues have as well, Rogue/Lock/X may also be viable, quick switches with demonfire in a kidney with blind/parlay on the other dps to allow you to cast could be legit and sick burst windows

[Deleted]

RIP destruction, lets just hope doomfire and rain of fire infernals do enough dps to compensate :P

[Yorindesarin]

RIP destruction, lets just hope doomfire and rain of fire infernals do enough dps to compensate :P

To compensate what...?

[striderZA]

To compensate what...?

Not sure, especially since Destruction isn't even playable yet, but okay. Let's write off things that don't exist yet.

[Gaidax]

To compensate what...?

*pulls back the hood*

EVERYTHIIIING...


That said, although I am not on the "Sky is Falling" team, the current Backdraft/Shadowburn/F&B status being put in the same talent row is making me sad.

I do suspect they want to slow down the spec, because Destruction is very reliant on gimmicky-ish stuff to do good right now and this is making things too difficult for average joe to follow.

[Baconeggcheese]

I'm curious what destros AoE is going to look like, its currently got probably the strongest sustained aoe in the game. Will be interesting to see what it looks like having its baseline aoe only come from RoF and having to talent into FnB and cata for the rest of it.

[wooters]

Not sure, especially since Destruction isn't even playable yet, but okay. Let's write off things that don't exist yet.

now you get it

[Kalmakk]

I'm curious what destros AoE is going to look like, its currently got probably the strongest sustained aoe in the game. Will be interesting to see what it looks like having its baseline aoe only come from RoF and having to talent into FnB and cata for the rest of it.

I don't think it's going to be as big a deal as many others seem to. Even though the AoE factors mostly come from talents, they don't really prevent or limit any of our ordinary rotational abilities in doing so. Although the baseliners aren't around, I don't think we'll be any worse placement for overall mechanics flexibility. If anything I see it being even more powerful than we have right now. Maybe not in a burst environment, but certainly in adaptability to multiple fight phases.

[Brusalk]

I'm curious what destros AoE is going to look like, its currently got probably the strongest sustained aoe in the game. Will be interesting to see what it looks like having its baseline aoe only come from RoF and having to talent into FnB and cata for the rest of it.

I doubt that Destro's AoE will be anything to write home about. They seem pretty interested in making Destro the undisputed 2-target cleave spec with Havoc. I imagine we'll have competitive AoE due to being able to continue our 2 target cleave while RoF is on-going, but I don't think it'll be crazy good like it is now.

If anything I'd imagine Implosion for Demo will be the true AoE king, at least as far as Warlocks are concerned.

[Kirroth]

If anything I'd imagine Implosion for Demo will be the true AoE king, at least as far as Warlocks are concerned.

Demo's always going to have a head start in the "best AoE" race, unless they majorly redesign the Felguard's abilities. That said, now that Cataclysm is only an option for Destro, it might have a niche on boss fights with big adds waves on a timer that about lines up with it.

[Deleted]

If anything I'd imagine Implosion for Demo will be the true AoE king, at least as far as Warlocks are concerned.

that depends entirely on how implosion works tho, if each imp deals the 100% sp that it says on the wowhead talent calculator then i think you'll be right but if all the imps only does 100% sp collectively then it would be crap. im inclined to believe that each imp does 100% sp is the way implosion works as it fits with its current niche(burst aoe) and you are after all using all your imps, if implosion works any other way it would basically be a pointless talent altho i think it would be nice if 1 cast of implosion only used up 1 imp, so if you have 10-12 imps out, you could cast it 10-12 times in succesion. we'll see when they finally get their act together and finally release the spec.