[BETA] Demonology Warlock Discussion

[Soulzar]

The whole point of Shadowflame is to give you something to do while moving. Anything else on top of that is a bonus.

Not sure you understand how Shadowflame works... Press button. Its instant. Used whilst moving/repositioning. Doesn't require stacking to 3 to "make up" for any damage because you were moving and would have other wise done 0 damage? Pretty simple really....? If you've been using it rotationally... you're imo doing it wrong... Yeah no shard cost dreadstalkers is great. However, as mentioned the cooldown duration for it... makes it a bit of a downer? Maybe if it was effected by haste a bit would make it feel less of a waiting around game...? Because as it stands you cant really save it for a specific thing because you need to have stalkers up 24/7 to actually deal damage? I get where you are coming from with SF... But as I said, I feel you don't understand how you should be using it. Otherwise... you're using DB on the move and everyone wants that now thanks!

I'm always open to being wrong, but stating I don't understand how it works given your use case....

The whole point of mobility spells is to mitigate lost dmg from having to move. If you are sitting on Shadowflame stacks while you're not moving so that you can get 3s of mobility when its needed you are losing dmg before movement is even brought into the picture. That's up to ~8 imps per minute you didn't spawn because you spent those shards on Stalkers. If you are stacking the DoT correctly so that you are not at a net negative in dmg from picking the "mobility" talent.. then you have no charges when you need to move. I don't understand how you can view its as a mobility talent.

We've always had lifetap/doom for stutter stepping movement and can Demonwrath for extended movement. Now that DC can be procced by Demonwrath IMO its really not even comparable anymore if you're looking at it from a movement perspective.

[Baconeggcheese]

If you've been using it rotationally... you're imo doing it wrong...

Soulz reasoning seems a bit off, but the rotational usage part specifically is correct.

Shadowflame has a stacking mechanic that refreshes the duration but adds a stack increasing the dmg. If you do this properly you effectively get 6 shadowflame dots worth of damage for 3 casts. You need to cast shadowflame in a specific time window in order to get that extra damage, meaning you can't just use it for random movement if you're doing it correctly.

If they want it to truly be a response to movement they should give it a rolling dot mechanic (ignite, UA) and remove the stacks all together.

[Kainslife]

I'm always open to being wrong, but stating I don't understand how it works given your use case....

The whole point of mobility spells is to mitigate lost dmg from having to move. If you are sitting on Shadowflame stacks while you're not moving so that you can get 3s of mobility when its needed you are losing dmg before movement is even brought into the picture. That's up to ~8 imps per minute you didn't spawn because you spent those shards on Stalkers. If you are stacking the DoT correctly so that you are not at a net negative in dmg from picking the "mobility" talent.. then you have no charges when you need to move. I don't understand how you can view its as a mobility talent.

We've always had lifetap/doom for stutter stepping movement and can Demonwrath for extended movement. Now that DC can be procced by Demonwrath IMO its really not even comparable anymore if you're looking at it from a movement perspective.

I've used it to great effect in Mythic+ dungeons where you can't count on minutes worth of extra imps to make up the DPS you lose by being forced to move.

Remember that raiding isn't the only endgame anymore, and the talent trees need to support all 3 PvE endgames and PvP.

[baldian]

Cosumption buff ? I hit for 4 millions now (2millions + before)

[demonicpanda]

Soulz reasoning seems a bit off, but the rotational usage part specifically is correct.

Shadowflame has a stacking mechanic that refreshes the duration but adds a stack increasing the dmg. If you do this properly you effectively get 6 shadowflame dots worth of damage for 3 casts. You need to cast shadowflame in a specific time window in order to get that extra damage, meaning you can't just use it for random movement if you're doing it correctly.

If they want it to truly be a response to movement they should give it a rolling dot mechanic (ignite, UA) and remove the stacks all together.

Wasn't this the reason for the change to Demo in the first place? They didn't like HoG's mechanics because it was unintuitive for this very reason? I should probably give up on trying to understand Blizzard at this point....

[Gaidax]

Wasn't this the reason for the change to Demo in the first place? They didn't like HoG's mechanics because it was unintuitive for this very reason? I should probably give up on trying to understand Blizzard at this point....

They are fine with leaving such things as an option for those who want to feel good about themselves, like it or any other reason. So it's a talent, as opposed to previously being mandatory as a baseline spec spell.

[wooters]

as stated above..shadowflame as of now needs to be applied in the "extention window" of the previous casted sf for maximum effect. the only instance this isn`t true as far as atleast I can see is before aoe, as the hastily collected shard used there would sometimes outweight the dmg lost on a maxed out dot

[Soulzar]

I've used it to great effect in Mythic+ dungeons where you can't count on minutes worth of extra imps to make up the DPS you lose by being forced to move.

Remember that raiding isn't the only endgame anymore, and the talent trees need to support all 3 PvE endgames and PvP.

You are right, I answered a "why would you ever use that talent" post with a "why would you ever use that talent" post. It wasn't my intention to imply it as a dead talent and I was speaking in a raiding context. I would expect it to also hold higher value in a PvP scenario where sustained dps is not necessarily a requirement and the ability to have an uninterruptible generator is much stronger.

[Baconeggcheese]

Wasn't this the reason for the change to Demo in the first place? They didn't like HoG's mechanics because it was unintuitive for this very reason? I should probably give up on trying to understand Blizzard at this point....

The talent is optional, whereas on live its a core part of the spec.

[Smog]

What is the current school of thought concerning implosion? Obviously it's the only strong aoe option, but can it ever be justified in being taken over imp dreadstalkers in most typical mythic encounters? Has anyone calculated the approximate percentage loss in a single target scenario? I'm assuming weaving implosions at the very end of a group of imps' uptime makes up some of the ground?

And to make sure I understand demonwrath correctly from my own testing, the damage does not scale per pet but the soul shard generation does, correct?

[Kainslife]

What is the current school of thought concerning implosion? Obviously it's the only strong aoe option, but can it ever be justified in being taken over imp dreadstalkers in most typical mythic encounters? Has anyone calculated the approximate percentage loss in a single target scenario? I'm assuming weaving implosions at the very end of a group of imps' uptime makes up some of the ground?

And to make sure I understand demonwrath correctly from my own testing, the damage does not scale per pet but the soul shard generation does, correct?

Mythic raiding or Mythic+ dungeons?

At any rate, even if you're waiting until the end of one imp group's lifetime to use Implosion you'll almost always have recently cast Hand of Gul'dan so you'll be typically Imploding 2 sets of imps at minimum.

[Smog]

Mythic raiding or Mythic+ dungeons?

At any rate, even if you're waiting until the end of one imp group's lifetime to use Implosion you'll almost always have recently cast Hand of Gul'dan so you'll be typically Imploding 2 sets of imps at minimum.

Sorry, Mythic raiding.

I understand there will be overlap with a fresher set of imps, but obviously if you're weaving implosions into a rotation, the best time to use it will be at the very end of one wave's duration. I'm really just curious about how much of a ST % dps loss implosion is. Obviously we can't be exact without tuning being done, but I'm curious if people have found implosion has been worth it just so we have some amount of actual aoe.

[Deleted]

Sorry, Mythic raiding.

I understand there will be overlap with a fresher set of imps, but obviously if you're weaving implosions into a rotation, the best time to use it will be at the very end of one wave's duration. I'm really just curious about how much of a ST % dps loss implosion is. Obviously we can't be exact without tuning being done, but I'm curious if people have found implosion has been worth it just so we have some amount of actual aoe.

If we take the riding Imps talent we get 2 extra imps every 15s. Each IMP deals about 40% SP dmg every second once we got 50% mastery/35% haste/15% crit with both IMP damage/crit artifact talents. that's about 800% SP including average crit. IMPlosion deals 200% dmg per IMP or 800% after a single HoG runs out, excluding crits.

Single target wise you probably lose a little bit of dps as IMP duration is lower, but as soon as you hit 2+ targets it should be a (big) gain.

[Deleted]

How are you guys making use of Shadowflame? On cooldown? Stacking to 3?

[ProxyK]

What is the current school of thought concerning implosion? Obviously it's the only strong aoe option, but can it ever be justified in being taken over imp dreadstalkers in most typical mythic encounters? Has anyone calculated the approximate percentage loss in a single target scenario? I'm assuming weaving implosions at the very end of a group of imps' uptime makes up some of the ground?

And to make sure I understand demonwrath correctly from my own testing, the damage does not scale per pet but the soul shard generation does, correct?

Someone did some math a couple pages earlier, as it stands implosion's damage is a little more linear scaling, while Improved Dreadstalkers will scale better into late game. Meaning the more haste/mastery you have, at a certain point Improved Dreadstalkers will surpass Implosion.

Implosion is a good target switch as well as AOE/Burst but it does have somewhat of a skillcap to know when to launch your imps. Improved Dreadstalkers is a great 'set it and forget it' talent.
Both solid choices, just depends on your personal preference or whatever you might need at that moment.

[Gaidax]

I have no idea what they are thinking with this Consumption, it's cool that it hits for those amounts - good for giggles and power trips in gchat, but it's not free damage there - basically everything else is sacrificed for that. I think they should at least halve if not 1/3 it and then move that damage back to the core abilities... such as, for example, making HoG not hit like shit instead or making Shadowbolt/Demonbolt a bit more powerful baseline, because 80/100% damage is laughable or better boost both.

As a whole, IMO. various Artifact nukes should produce no more than 10% of your total damage output over a reasonable encounter length.

[wholol]

That nerf to master summoner in the pvp talent also blows, no idea why they keep nerfing locks in pvp while other melee can literally 1 shot people.

[sugarfree]

Another pvp nerf to Warlocks as if we're not struggling already. That has got to be a talent that they are able to squeeze a nerf in every build.

Thank you, Blizz. May I have another?

[Deleted]

I have no idea what they are thinking with this Consumption, it's cool that it hits for those amounts - good for giggles and power trips in gchat, but it's not free damage there - basically everything else is sacrificed for that. I think they should at least halve if not 1/3 it and then move that damage back to the core abilities... such as, for example, making HoG not hit like shit instead or making Shadowbolt/Demonbolt a bit more powerful baseline, because 80/100% damage is laughable or better boost both.

As a whole, IMO. various Artifact nukes should produce no more than 10% of your total damage output over a reasonable encounter length.

I agree entirely. It especially hurts since it has such a long cooldown.

Long ramp up + demonic empowerment being clunky (Summon, empower, summon, empower, summon, empower, etc) + a big chunk of damage tied to a direct damage nuke with a long cooldown leads to demonology feeling off, in my opinion.

Starting with 5 shards (Or even 3), demonic empowerment buffing next X summons (Or something similar), and a chunk of damage being moved out of Consumption and on to the rest would do wonders for demonology I think.

[Centripeto]

Did anyone else notice a big change in consumption's damage? Yesterday i was hitting for almost twice as much.