[BETA] Demonology Warlock Discussion

[Anoregon]

Just to clarify my previous post:
I kind of purposely left my own opinion out of my post as I've only played Demo a little on the PTR, so I don't really have an opinion on it. Merely answered his question of what most people seem to think about the feel of the rotation; they don't hate it but would prefer changes. Proposed changes range from making DE instant to making DE a buff on the player.

I've seen the suggestion to make DE a buff/aura on the player, but what about the idea of making it a reactive debuff you cast on the target? So like, you cast the spell on the target, they have a 20 second debuff or whatever that makes any of your pets that attack that target gain 50% health and haste for a small duration, refreshed every time they attack. It would solve the problem of having to recast it every time you summon imps or dreadstalkers, at least.

I actually can't recall if the "creatures that attack this target gain X" debuff mechanic has existed in the game yet, though.

[Deleted]

I'm still not convinced we need to DE imediatly after a HoG/SDS or should I say hopeful . It would save GCD's if we could reduce that number in favor of more SB's, maybe cast SDS +SB + HoG + DE or the other way around, or SDS+HoG+DE with a free SDS Proc.

But I'm sure we'll get all the answers once SimC + numbers are closer to final.

[Smog]

I've seen the suggestion to make DE a buff/aura on the player, but what about the idea of making it a reactive debuff you cast on the target? So like, you cast the spell on the target, they have a 20 second debuff or whatever that makes any of your pets that attack that target gain 50% health and haste for a small duration, refreshed every time they attack. It would solve the problem of having to recast it every time you summon imps or dreadstalkers, at least.

I actually can't recall if the "creatures that attack this target gain X" debuff mechanic has existed in the game yet, though.

Please no. This would make target switching even more of a nightmare, and would be a direct nerf to any of the pets' aoe, such as Felguard's bladestorm.

[Baconeggcheese]

I had suggested a few times to copy azmodan's general of hell ability from hots, which summons a minion that buffs all the other minions around it. It seemed a perfect fit considering azmodan follows the summoner design.

But we're well past the phase where they'd make a huge change like that. Just gonna have to live with every minion summon having a 2nd cast attached.

[Smog]

I had suggested a few times to copy azmodan's general of hell ability from hots, which summons a minion that buffs all the other minions around it. It seemed a perfect fit considering azmodan follows the summoner design.

But we're well past the phase where they'd make a huge change like that. Just gonna have to live with every minion summon having a 2nd cast attached.

Is that really the case, though? For example, I can't imagine that in the case of a Demonic Calling proc that you would cast DE after both CDS and HoG. I'd assume with a DC proc it would be CDS (Free)>HoG>DE.

[garonne]

Is that really the case, though? For example, I can't imagine that in the case of a Demonic Calling proc that you would cast DE after both CDS and HoG. I'd assume with a DC proc it would be CDS (Free)>HoG>DE.

hog > cds > de actually. imps take a second or so to spawn so you wouldnt miss much de uptime on them as apposed to dreadstalkers which are basically instant the moment the spell is done casting.

[Baconeggcheese]

Is that really the case, though? For example, I can't imagine that in the case of a Demonic Calling proc that you would cast DE after both CDS and HoG. I'd assume with a DC proc it would be CDS (Free)>HoG>DE.

Lots of depends I suppose. Do you miss out on a cast / attack from each imp / stalker for not immediately buffing them? How much dmg do you lose for not immediately buffing them? Etc etc.

Either way you'd be spending a large amount of globals bufffing pets, where I'd prefer something like general of hell. Which was the point.

[Drakile]

I don't mean to change the subject, but a quick aside if you will. Are Demon Hunters just going to be laughing at us in pvp since they can just kill an imp or dreadstalker to gain 20% more damage?

[Gnarilex]

I had suggested a few times to copy azmodan's general of hell ability from hots, which summons a minion that buffs all the other minions around it. It seemed a perfect fit considering azmodan follows the summoner design.

But we're well past the phase where they'd make a huge change like that. Just gonna have to live with every minion summon having a 2nd cast attached.

...give the inquisitor that functionality since they don't want to bring it back for the talent? It feels more like a dreadlord and would be pulling some strings behind the scenes instead of out on the front lines.

[Smog]

hog > cds > de actually. imps take a second or so to spawn so you wouldnt miss much de uptime on them as apposed to dreadstalkers which are basically instant the moment the spell is done casting.

Oh, this makes sense. Cast the HoG while CDS is still on ~1s cooldown so you don't lose CDS uptime, and then CDS > DE. No lost globals, no lost DE uptime. Slick.

[Deleted]

hog > cds > de actually. imps take a second or so to spawn so you wouldnt miss much de uptime on them as apposed to dreadstalkers which are basically instant the moment the spell is done casting.

DE is way more important that your "cds" for imps..
The fact imps take inbetween .7 and .8s to spawn is just a big QoL for us

The misinformation and guessworks taken as gospel you guys are spreading is amazing (on all 3 beta threads) =/

[Smog]

DE is way more important that your "cds" for imps..
The fact imps take inbetween .7 and .8s to spawn is just a big QoL for us

The misinformation and guessworks taken as gospel you guys are spreading is amazing (on all 3 beta threads) =/

Can you restate this, possibly? I'm unsure what you're trying to say here.

[Deleted]

Imps are your 1st source of damage (tied with DG if you go GoSup)
Imps spawn actually after .8 seconds your HoG landed
Imps start to cast fel firebolt right after they spawn

Your "cds" can be macroed into whatever you like, and they are either a fucking racial or a 2mcd subpar trinket/SH that you still want to sync on DG/GoServ and cast on cd anyway unless banking for some burst in any given encounter, therefore making your whole argument about lets minmax cds while sacrificing uptime on DE pretty retarded

[Yorindesarin]

Lots of depends I suppose. Do you miss out on a cast / attack from each imp / stalker for not immediately buffing them? How much dmg do you lose for not immediately buffing them? Etc etc.

Either way you'd be spending a large amount of globals bufffing pets, where I'd prefer something like general of hell. Which was the point.

It saddens me that they effectively picked DE and stuck with its initial design. (Baking in the original power trip talent was a good QoL) There was so much they could have done to make Demo play better. A general of hell type thing would have been golden. make it last 15~ seconds buff all your pets cost a shard... doesnt actually attack... but still counts for a DB demon...? Unless the prepatch really woo's me with Demo. I think I may roll fire mage... Because well... Kael fan boy and all... And beta fire mage feels more rewarding than putting in a tonne of hardwork for equivalent DPS to everyone else... :/ I mean I loved playing demo during WoD... I liked the hard work and the reward for using my abilities correctly. Smashing the crap out of the meters etc... But... I can't see myself playing something thats a tonne of effort for minimal reward.. I just can't see myself playing something with such a slow ramp up time that requires such a massive setup... But we will see I guess... Maybe my lock will manage to be my main in legion... Maybe not... Also depends on what my raid team needs.

[DesireKT]

Imps are your 1st source of damage (tied with DG if you go GoSup)
Imps spawn actually after .8 seconds your HoG landed
Imps start to cast fel firebolt right after they spawn

Your "cds" can be macroed into whatever you like, and they are either a fucking racial or a 2mcd subpar trinket/SH that you still want to sync on DG/GoServ and cast on cd anyway unless banking for some burst in any given encounter, therefore making your whole argument about lets minmax cds while sacrificing uptime on DE pretty retarded

CDS is Call Dreadstalkers... NOT Cooldowns (CD's)

[Deleted]

Ewwwwwwwww those overlapping acronyms

[Smog]

Your "cds" can be macroed into whatever you like, and they are either a fucking racial or a 2mcd subpar trinket/SH that you still want to sync on DG/GoServ and cast on cd anyway unless banking for some burst in any given encounter, therefore making your whole argument about lets minmax cds while sacrificing uptime on DE pretty retarded

I do not think that word means what you think it means

---

Acronym confusion aside, it does seem like what was stated above will be the best usage when Demonic Calling procs (which should be pretty much every rotation after the first):

HoG while CDS is ~1s cooldown > CDS while imps are spawning > DE

I like it. Now I wish they'd just listen to feedback and make DE instant so that we're able to move at pretty much ANY point in our rotation. Affliction can move on dot refreshes, destro can move on conflags, demo can move on... Doom applications if we don't take Hand of Doom? Awkward.

[Gnarilex]

It saddens me that they effectively picked DE and stuck with its initial design. (Baking in the original power trip talent was a good QoL) There was so much they could have done to make Demo play better. A general of hell type thing would have been golden. make it last 15~ seconds buff all your pets cost a shard... doesnt actually attack... but still counts for a DB demon...?

The inquisitor would be perfect for this. Have it stay close to the warlock and need to be recast every 12 seconds (length of DE). Would free up the rotation a bit and help with movement (especially if it was instant). I really don't think the devs intended for DE to be cast after every summon.

[Smog]

The inquisitor would be perfect for this. Have it stay close to the warlock and need to be recast every 12 seconds (length of DE). Would free up the rotation a bit and help with movement (especially if it was instant). I really don't think the devs intended for DE to be cast after every summon.

I honestly don't think the community gives the developers enough credit. Do they do stupid things at times? Of course they do, they're human. But to say that they designed both of our pet summons to have a 12s duration, and designed DE to have that same 12s duration, but then assume they didn't expect us to use it for each of our pet casts is a bit silly. They aren't that oblivious, and I'm sure they design and test the class internally at least to the point that they would know how often DE would be optimally used.

Is using DE after each HoG and CDS particularly fun or engaging? No, definitely not. But I don't think that means the devs didn't expect it. Summon pet > buff pet is not exactly a clever discovery or usage of the toolkit.

edit: What would have been nice would have been additional mechanics that allowed us to apply one DE to two summons as Demonic Calling does. A talent that allowed us to have 6 soul shards, or something that proc'd free HoGs, etc. I don't mind using DE to follow up every pet cast if there are other mechanics within the spec that let you play intelligently to occasionally circumvent that requirement and reward you by allowing a single DE cover two summons.

[Yorindesarin]

I honestly don't think the community gives the developers enough credit. Do they do stupid things at times? Of course they do, they're human. But to say that they designed both of our pet summons to have a 12s duration, and designed DE to have that same 12s duration, but then assume they didn't expect us to use it for each of our pet casts is a bit silly. They aren't that oblivious, and I'm sure they design and test the class internally at least to the point that they would know how often DE would be optimally used.

Is using DE after each HoG and CDS particularly fun or engaging? No, definitely not. But I don't think that means the devs didn't expect it. Summon pet > buff pet is not exactly a clever discovery or usage of the toolkit.

edit: What would have been nice would have been additional mechanics that allowed us to apply one DE to two summons as Demonic Calling does. A talent that allowed us to have 6 soul shards, or something that proc'd free HoGs, etc. I don't mind using DE to follow up every pet cast if there are other mechanics within the spec that let you play intelligently to occasionally circumvent that requirement and reward you by allowing a single DE cover two summons.

Idk about you but my dreadstalkers have a 15 second duration...? Last I knew at least. The design is quite obviously not as intended.. at least Id hope it wasnt intended to be this way. Because as it stands, its terrible spec design...