[BETA] Demonology Warlock Discussion

[Smog]

Idk about you but my dreadstalkers have a 15 second duration...? Last I knew at least.

CDS has a 12s duration and a 15s cd unless it has been changed since I last did testing or WoWHead and MMOChamp are wrong.

The design is quite obviously not as intended.. at least Id hope it wasnt intended to be this way. Because as it stands, its terrible spec design...

How is it "quite obviously not as intended"? Are you implying that the pet duration and the pet buff duration is the exact same by complete coincidence? I suppose that's possible, but it seems incredibly unlikely to me. Keep in mind these people have designed the most successful MMO, and arguably video game, in history. Do they make stupid decisions at times? Yes. Are they stupid? No.

It being a "terrible design" is definitively an opinion. Alot of people agree with you; I personally think it's only moderately annoying, and wouldn't complain at all if DE were simply instant.

If you actually read my post, you would see I never defend it as good design. In fact, I say several times it isn't. All the post was saying was the the developers are not stupid, and when several interactive abilities all line up to have the same cooldown, you can probably assume that wasn't on accident.

[Avikur]

I had suggested a few times to copy azmodan's general of hell ability from hots, which summons a minion that buffs all the other minions around it. It seemed a perfect fit considering azmodan follows the summoner design.

I would certainly prefer that design, or even scrap DE and add a chance to buff all demons to shadow bolt so just through our filler it would happen passivly. I'm just not keen on the required cast time spell after each summon, makes the rotation too clunky imo

[Baconeggcheese]

Ewwwwwwwww those overlapping acronyms

Yeah I don't really get why people immediately start using acronyms for new abilities that aren't widely adopted. Just serves to confuse the crap out of people.

Always boggled my mind when people threw around "DS" for instance when that could mean multiple things.

- - - Updated - - -

I would certainly prefer that design, or even scrap DE and add a chance to buff all demons to shadow bolt so just through our filler it would happen passivly. I'm just not keen on the required cast time spell after each summon, makes the rotation too clunky imo

I don't find that there's any "clunk" in the demo ST rotation. It's fairly intuitive and smooth, it's just not exactly fun to have to follow up every single one of your summons with a buff. I would have liked a lot of different alternatives, but we're well past that point now and blizz apparently didn't seem open to changing it in the first place.

[Smog]

I don't find that there's any "clunk" in the demo ST rotation. It's fairly intuitive and smooth, it's just not exactly fun to have to follow up every single one of your summons with a buff. I would have liked a lot of different alternatives, but we're well past that point now and blizz apparently didn't seem open to changing it in the first place.

I absolutely agree. People love throwing around the words "Clunky" and "Clunkiness" when what they really mean is that they simply don't like it. There isn't anything more clunky about following up a HoG/CDS with a DE than there is following it up with a SB/DB. They're both approximately 1 GCD casting time spells that yield damage and require no extra thought, timing, or synchronization. There is practically no difference in the mechanical feel or behavior.

Is it uninspired and kind of boring? Yes, absolutely. Is it clunky? Not any more than the alternatives.

[Deleted]

I absolutely agree. People love throwing around the words "Clunky" and "Clunkiness" when what they really mean is that they simply don't like it. There isn't anything more clunky about following up a HoG/CDS with a DE than there is following it up with a SB/DB. They're both approximately 1 GCD casting time spells that yield damage and require no extra thought, timing, or synchronization. There is practically no difference in the mechanical feel or behavior.

Is it uninspired and kind of boring? Yes, absolutely. Is it clunky? Not any more than the alternatives.

well, the problem with beta demo is that it is so rotational and rigid that if you dont get that particular spell off in that particular situation, it'll end up being a sizable dps loss but in terms of intuitiveness, beta demo is about a million miles ahead of live demo which is about as clunky and unintuitive as it gets. only bad thing about legion demo is that we loose meta which sucks, we dont even get a minor glyph to allow us to turn into demons permanently which sucks even more.

[Smog]

well, the problem with beta demo is that it is so rotational and rigid that if you dont get that particular spell off in that particular situation, it'll end up being a sizable dps loss ...

Which isn't terribly different than any other immobile caster spec. Movement is a loss in dps, as it basically always has been. This isn't an issue with DE's priority or frequency, this is an issue with the spec's inability to move due to every single one of our priority spells having a cast time (other than Doom). This would be the same even if they somehow reduced the frequency of DE usage, because that saved global would just be filled with a SB/DB.

... in terms of intuitiveness, beta demo is about a million miles ahead of live demo which is about as clunky and unintuitive as it gets.

I absolutely agree. WoD Demo is a perfect example of the "clunky" buzzword that's being thrown around and misused.

... only bad thing about legion demo is that we loose meta which sucks, we dont even get a minor glyph to allow us to turn into demons permanently which sucks.

I personally hate meta and have no interest in turning into a demon, but I agree it should be a glyph for those that will miss it. Taking an entire spec's mechanics and using them to create an entirely different class is pretty lame.

[Deleted]

I don't find that there's any "clunk" in the demo ST rotation. It's fairly intuitive and smooth, it's just not exactly fun to have to follow up every single one of your summons with a buff. I would have liked a lot of different alternatives, but we're well past that point now and blizz apparently didn't seem open to changing it in the first place.

Basically this, it not clunky but I'm not a fan of it personally. A pet that buffs your other demons or a buff on you that's basically an aura where you crackle power to your demons would have been cool. Just looking for that visual flair to the spec that's missing atm and empowerments just...boring is my main criticism.

[Smog]

Basically this, it not clunky but I'm not a fan of it personally. A pet that buffs your other demons or a buff on you that's basically an aura where you crackle power to your demons would have been cool. Just looking for that visual flair to the spec that's missing atm and empowerments just...boring is my main criticism.

It seems like the entire warlock community is bored with the lackluster nature of DE. While its complete removal or replacement is incredibly unlikely at this point, it's possible they would listen and tinker with it to make it more user-friendly. I hope people are submitting their feedback to Blizzard via the ingame tool and the official forums. I would love to see it either changed to be instant, or altered to be some kind of aura with a longer duration should the cast time remain.

[Anoregon]

I'm going to have to agree with the folks that would prefer to see the DE functionality tied to a summoned minion, like the inquisitor. That way only have to cast the "make my pets better" spell once per summon rotation instead of after every individual summon. Also Inquisitors look super cool and we should be able to summon them.

I actually am a bit skeptical that the current playstyle is what Blizzard originally intended. After adding the original power trip functionality into DE, they removed any real nuance to the rotation and it just became the mandatory "cast this after every summon, every time" that we have now. I imagine the intention behind rolling power trip into DE was for there to be a single cast of it per summon rotation instead of the 2+ we have now, but players quickly realized that wasn't ideal for DPS.

[Smog]

I'm going to have to agree with the folks that would prefer to see the DE functionality tied to a summoned minion, like the inquisitor. That way only have to cast the "make my pets better" spell once per summon rotation instead of after every individual summon. Also Inquisitors look super cool and we should be able to summon them.

I actually am a bit skeptical that the current playstyle is what Blizzard originally intended. After adding the original power trip functionality into DE, they removed any real nuance to the rotation and it just became the mandatory "cast this after every summon, every time" that we have now. I imagine the intention behind rolling power trip into DE was for there to be a single cast of it per summon rotation instead of the 2+ we have now, but players quickly realized that wasn't ideal for DPS.

I agree that would be much more interesting and fun, but we have to be realistic at this point and submit actionable feedback. The prepatch is likely less than a month out, and they've already said it's pretty much just small tweaks and tuning changes from here on. As much as I would like DE to be replaced by something more interactive and interesting, it's very unlikely they're going to scrap one of our core abilities and redesign another. We really need to try to get what we will have into a more usable and friendly state.

Don't get me wrong: submit all the feedback you want to Blizzard. But don't just include ideas for DE's replacement; also include how you'd like to see DE changed (instant cast, longer duration, buff on the caster as opposed to the pets, etc) as it is likely not going anywhere until post launch and the first raid tier.

[Yorindesarin]

CDS has a 12s duration and a 15s cd unless it has been changed since I last did testing or WoWHead and MMOChamp are wrong.



How is it "quite obviously not as intended"? Are you implying that the pet duration and the pet buff duration is the exact same by complete coincidence? I suppose that's possible, but it seems incredibly unlikely to me. Keep in mind these people have designed the most successful MMO, and arguably video game, in history. Do they make stupid decisions at times? Yes. Are they stupid? No.

It being a "terrible design" is definitively an opinion. Alot of people agree with you; I personally think it's only moderately annoying, and wouldn't complain at all if DE were simply instant.

If you actually read my post, you would see I never defend it as good design. In fact, I say several times it isn't. All the post was saying was the the developers are not stupid, and when several interactive abilities all line up to have the same cooldown, you can probably assume that wasn't on accident.

I didnt say you said it was good design. However, its not the buff/pet duration I was referring to. Its more the "Summon -> DE -> Summon -> DE" which is not as intended... You're double buffing your felguard + whatever you summon first... for the sake of buffing what you summon second. How could that ever be intentional design..? And yeah my bad 12 sec Dreadstalkers... For some reason I always thought it was longer... Just somewhat reinforces the point that they havent really looked/changed things about to make the spec play better... Like I said... loads of effort/required spells to go off at XYZ timing... for minimal effort. The potential for a great and fun spec is sitting right there. Blizzard just seem blind to making it happen.

[Deleted]

I agree that would be much more interesting and fun, but we have to be realistic at this point and submit actionable feedback. The prepatch is likely less than a month out, and they've already said it's pretty much just small tweaks and tuning changes from here on. As much as I would like DE to be replaced by something more interactive and interesting, it's very unlikely they're going to scrap one of our core abilities and redesign another. We really need to try to get what we will have into a more usable and friendly state.

Don't get me wrong: submit all the feedback you want to Blizzard. But don't just include ideas for DE's replacement; also include how you'd like to see DE changed (instant cast, longer duration, buff on the caster as opposed to the pets, etc) as it is likely not going anywhere until post launch and the first raid tier.

well DE is about as interactive as it gets, you need to cast a lot so you cant deny it isnt interactive, i just think the problem with it is that it is just another button to push in a long line of cast timed spells, making demo a rather tureted spec, prolly even more so than destro and it makes you incredibly dependent on getting your pets summoned b4 any and all movement but i do agree that they could have made it instant cast or something coz it isnt a direct dmg spell.

[Gaidax]

well, the problem with beta demo is that it is so rotational and rigid that if you dont get that particular spell off in that particular situation, it'll end up being a sizable dps loss...

It and just about any spec in the game? If you don't get particular spell off in particular situation as any spec - it's a DPS loss and a big one often.

I am not terribly sure what the complaint with DE is really? My only thought can be that you need to cast it too often and it does not have the sufficient feedbacky oompf for it and I guess this is what grinds people's gears.

[Deleted]

It and just about any spec in the game? If you don't get particular spell off in particular situation as any spec - it's a DPS loss and a big one often.

well few specs are as rigid and confined into their rotation as demo, add the ramp up time and movement and you'll have potential periods of time where your dps almost drops to 0 even if you play close to perfect. you definately need nostradamus lvl prediction abilities to play demo optimally if there is any movement mechanics encounters.

[Smog]

It and just about any spec in the game? If you don't get particular spell off in particular situation as any spec - it's a DPS loss and a big one often.

I am not terribly sure what the complaint with DE is really? My only thought can be that you need to cast it too often and it does not have the sufficient feedbacky oompf for it and I guess this is what grinds people's gears.

I honestly think most peoples' problem with DE, even if they can't quite verbalize it or consciously put their finger on it, is that it is one of the least visceral and responsive abilities in the game. Not only does it have an almost complete lack of visual feedback, it also doesn't have any immediately discernal impact or damage text associated with it. It feels as though you use the ability and do nothing.

To get a feel for what I mean, use DE a few dozen times on the test realm, and then switch to, say, a Fury warrior and hit Rampage or Raging Blow. DE is just as integral to the Demo rotation as these abilities are for Fury Warriors, and DE probably provides just as much DPS as either of those abilities do, but they feel completely different. The Fury abilities feel great, and are extremely satisfying to hit; DE is the definition of bland and lackluster.

Affliction and Shadow Priests have had this issue forever. Their abilities don't really feel like they do anything because there is so little visual feedback, though this obviously matters more to some than others. The difference, however, is that as visually underwhelming as Mind Blast is, it is at least accompanied by feedback in the form of a big number popping up. DE doesn't even have that. You hit the ability, and even though you logically know it's increasing your damage and it was the right thing to do, it feels like you've done absolutely nothing with that GCD. Now add in the fact that you use this ability constantly, and you can begin to understand why people hate it (and then mistakenly claim it as "clunky").

[garonne]

when it comes to movement we suck, however there is demonwrath, demonic circle, burning rush and gateway. if you're doing 0 damage you royally fucked up. we'll lose damage on movement but like any other caster we should be planning around it with dbm anyway.

sn: i wouldnt mind hog being instant over DE. with the high expense of imps, the instant would be a great qol

[Deleted]

when it comes to movement we suck, however there is demonwrath, demonic circle, burning rush and gateway. if you're doing 0 damage you royally fucked up. we'll lose damage on movement but like any other caster we should be planning around it with dbm anyway.

sn: i wouldnt mind hog being instant over DE. with the high expense of imps, the instant would be a great qol

Having DE instant would mean CDS is buffed instant, but HoG Imps would mis out, as they spawn 0.8s later.

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It and just about any spec in the game? If you don't get particular spell off in particular situation as any spec - it's a DPS loss and a big one often.

I am not terribly sure what the complaint with DE is really? My only thought can be that you need to cast it too often and it does not have the sufficient feedbacky oompf for it and I guess this is what grinds people's gears.

DE is like putting Curse of Elements on the boss with a "next damage spell" limitation. You press a button and nothing/no damage happens until you do something else.

That's why DE probably feels like ability bloat/wasted GCD as the ability feels wasted unlike casting a SB or HoG/CDS.

[Drakile]

I think another issue with DE is the fact that we are built around it, so if you are in a position where you can't pop it you're just going to be hitting like a wet noodle, it doesn't feel like "oh man my demons are super powerful now" it feels like "oh I gotta press this button so my pets do as much damage as everyone else's pets"(UH, BM) there is no reward there only punishment.

Also I personally feel this new demo will suffer from the same thing old demo did, with so many sources of damage there is no real super rewarding spell to hit, and you have no real button to look forward to pressing, but of course that's just my opinion and it really generally shows in pvp more then pve

[Deleted]

I think another issue with DE is the fact that we are built around it, so if you are in a position where you can't pop it you're just going to be hitting like a wet noodle, it doesn't feel like "oh man my demons are super powerful now" it feels like "oh I gotta press this button so my pets do as much damage as everyone else's pets"(UH, BM) there is no reward there only punishment.

Also I personally feel this new demo will suffer from the same thing old demo did, with so many sources of damage there is no real super rewarding spell to hit, and you have no real button to look forward to pressing, but of course that's just my opinion and it really generally shows in pvp more then pve

I think TC from the artifact will have that big nuke effect you are looking for.

[Maculo]

How does Demonology perform in terms of damage now? I realize that may be a hard question to answer at this point. I am concerned about performance in five-man dungeons, where there may not be time to ramp up shards and imps.