1. #2261
    I wonder how it would be like if i pick shadowy inspiration and proceed to spam demonic empowerment / instant bolts as an actual generator, since DE has a shorter cast time and all and pretty much guarantees 100% uptime of DE, although I see some big mana issues doing that , not to mention using 2 gcds instead of 1 might be rather shitty, but maybe if paired with power trip... I dunno, thoughts?

  2. #2262
    Way too inefficient. Here, look. You cast DE, all your pets already have DE so the duration just gets refreshed slightly, PT doesn't proc, you instant cast SB. Total result gotten, one SB. Total time spent, 50% more than hard casting one SB.

    Now maybe it would have been a viable rotation when PT was a 100% chance to get a SS, but that's why they changed it to a 50% chance.

  3. #2263
    Quote Originally Posted by Kirroth View Post
    Way too inefficient. Here, look. You cast DE, all your pets already have DE so the duration just gets refreshed slightly, PT doesn't proc, you instant cast SB. Total result gotten, one SB. Total time spent, 50% more than hard casting one SB.

    Now maybe it would have been a viable rotation when PT was a 100% chance to get a SS, but that's why they changed it to a 50% chance.
    Yeah you're right, I do wonder why they're afraid of DE becoming a filler, it's another option to choose from, they could always up the mana cost if they wanted to nerf it.

  4. #2264
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by wholol View Post
    Yeah you're right, I do wonder why they're afraid of DE becoming a filler, it's another option to choose from, they could always up the mana cost if they wanted to nerf it.
    I think they want DE to be the defining Demo spell, wouldn't really look right being a filler. As things stand though very much looking forward to Demo's playstyle in general, looks included, just popping DE with alot of pets will probably be quite intimidating to the other player (in PvP that is) can't wait!

  5. #2265
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by wholol View Post
    Yeah you're right, I do wonder why they're afraid of DE becoming a filler, it's another option to choose from, they could always up the mana cost if they wanted to nerf it.
    as kirroth said, its way too inefficient and quite frankly, i think its a dps loss to use period bcoz all you really get is the ability to cast an ability you'd cast 9 times out of 10 anyway and you only get to cast 0,5 sec faster, it doesnt really get you anything extra, well it gives you 1 extra gcd every 40-50ish secs, which is absolutely nothing compared to shadowflame and demonic calling, ofc the problem is that demonic calling in purely rng based so it can screw you over but it doesnt take much for it to be better than SI, well in theory atleast.

  6. #2266
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by almara2512 View Post
    as kirroth said, its way too inefficient and quite frankly, i think its a dps loss to use period bcoz all you really get is the ability to cast an ability you'd cast 9 times out of 10 anyway and you only get to cast 0,5 sec faster, it doesnt really get you anything extra, well it gives you 1 extra gcd every 40-50ish secs, which is absolutely nothing compared to shadowflame and demonic calling, ofc the problem is that demonic calling in purely rng based so it can screw you over but it doesnt take much for it to be better than SI, well in theory atleast.
    You get 1 extra SB every 4 DE basically, which is probably the go to talent if you take demonbolt. DC should give you about 50% of a HoG every 15s, but not the Gcd and can't overlap. I think all 3 talents are pretty equal. Shadowflame should be the highest dps in theory, but it does force you into stacking it to 3 and that will complicate the rotation too much IMHO.

  7. #2267
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Tinuvial View Post
    You get 1 extra SB every 4 DE basically, which is probably the go to talent if you take demonbolt. DC should give you about 50% of a HoG every 15s, but not the Gcd and can't overlap. I think all 3 talents are pretty equal. Shadowflame should be the highest dps in theory, but it does force you into stacking it to 3 and that will complicate the rotation too much IMHO.
    that depends how you look at it, with DC you technically save 2 gcd each time it procs, 2 gcds you'd use to generate 2 shards for call dreadstalkers is instead used to generate shards for HoG, basically you'd use 2 gcds where you would normally use 4 gcds. overall, DC should be significantly better than SI simply due to the gcds you potentially save.

  8. #2268
    here is what frostlion had to say about it when asked about shadowflame usage

    Shadow flame. Each charge has a dot, wow has dot extension mechanics that mean if you reapply a dot within the final 30% of its duration, those ticks that would have been lost by the overwrite, are instead added onto the next application. Since shadowflame damage stacks, by reapplying within the extension window those ticks are not only saved, but increased in damage. So stacks 1 2 3, have ticks 3 4 5 respectively. 4 ticks per cast, you basically push 1 tick forwards each stack.
    The other part is that the recharge time and the dot time line up such that you can get 3 stacks out of 2 charges, because 1 recharges during the extended dot time.
    But yes each charge gives 1 shard, if you immediately wanted shards you could cast them together, but you would lose the damage from the first dot as it is instantly overwritten with most ticks lost, and from the end 3 stack because charges arent back yet. You would choose this is when the shard damage outweighs the loss of the dot, which would be aoe.

  9. #2269
    Quote Originally Posted by almara2512 View Post
    that depends how you look at it, with DC you technically save 2 gcd each time it procs, 2 gcds you'd use to generate 2 shards for call dreadstalkers is instead used to generate shards for HoG, basically you'd use 2 gcds where you would normally use 4 gcds. overall, DC should be significantly better than SI simply due to the gcds you potentially save.
    Dem Calling doesnt proc nearly as much as I'd like it to. In practise i have alot of rotations where DC doesnt proc before Call dreadstalkers comes of cooldown. And thats why i prefer the instant shadow/demonbolt over it. It procs 100% always vs. DC which is a random proc.
    Another benefit is the increased mobility with it if u plan the instant bolt together with life tap of doom beforehand.
    made by Shyama

  10. #2270
    In a stand and plant scenario I much prefer Demonic Calling as I really like being able to squeeze in another HoG as Stalkers are in their final seconds of cooldown, without having to worry about banking the shards. Once you start mixing in heavier movement or target swapping, I like DI better.

    I think DC should have a higher proc rate TBH. The spell itself is balanced (capped) around the cooldown of Stalkers; why it cant be a more reliable proc I don't know.

  11. #2271
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by gruxxar View Post
    Dem Calling doesnt proc nearly as much as I'd like it to. In practise i have alot of rotations where DC doesnt proc before Call dreadstalkers comes of cooldown. And thats why i prefer the instant shadow/demonbolt over it. It procs 100% always vs. DC which is a random proc.
    Another benefit is the increased mobility with it if u plan the instant bolt together with life tap of doom beforehand.
    the problem with SI is that its such a minor gain, it essentially comes down to whether or not you get 2+ DC procs every 80-90 secs, if you do, then DC is superior making it a bigger gain on average over SI in my opinion and lets face it, if you need the additional mobility you pick shadowflame.

    now if SI gave you 2-3 stacks of instant SB/DB, then we could talk, but at this point, DC should be a significantly bigger gain than SI on average.
    Last edited by mmoca748dddcc2; 2016-05-02 at 10:36 PM.

  12. #2272
    Not really a fan of Shadowflame for movement, the stacking forces you to spend the charges once you fire one (at least, I feel the need to).

    But yea, what Soulzar says, if the % was 25 or 30% i think it would feel alot more reliable!
    made by Shyama

  13. #2273
    Yeah shadowflames kinda shit for movement because you have to use it in a specific window of time with the stacking mechanic.

    Honestly they should just give it the same treatment as UA and get rid of the stacking all together so that it can truly be for movement.
    ..and so he left, with terrible power in shaking hands.

  14. #2274
    yup. that would be a fine improvement

  15. #2275
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Baconeggcheese View Post
    Yeah shadowflames kinda shit for movement because you have to use it in a specific window of time with the stacking mechanic.

    Honestly they should just give it the same treatment as UA and get rid of the stacking all together so that it can truly be for movement.
    yeah if it just costed shards and didnt have stacks that would be great but that would go against their whole reduction of movement for ranged dps.

  16. #2276
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by almara2512 View Post
    that depends how you look at it, with DC you technically save 2 gcd each time it procs, 2 gcds you'd use to generate 2 shards for call dreadstalkers is instead used to generate shards for HoG, basically you'd use 2 gcds where you would normally use 4 gcds. overall, DC should be significantly better than SI simply due to the gcds you potentially save.
    You don't save GCD's as you only cast SB when there is nothing else to cast (due to cds or lack of shards). Thus you save shards, yes, but those are only spend on more HoG as that is the only way to dump excess shards, all the other shards are spend on the CD demons or Dreadstalkers.

    The question is, will 2 shards every 5 SB be more or less worth the instant SB every <12 sec. It'll probably be pretty equal.

  17. #2277
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Tinuvial View Post
    You don't save GCD's as you only cast SB when there is nothing else to cast (due to cds or lack of shards). Thus you save shards, yes, but those are only spend on more HoG as that is the only way to dump excess shards, all the other shards are spend on the CD demons or Dreadstalkers.

    The question is, will 2 shards every 5 SB be more or less worth the instant SB every <12 sec. It'll probably be pretty equal.
    again, like i said, it depends on how you look at it, DC alone allows you to cast fewer DEs and allows you to cast fewer SBs for the same effect, essentially you save 2 gcds alone pr every 20-30secs just due to the reduced amount of DEs you will cast, which will mean that DC will net you significantly more wild imps and thus more dmg than SI, also you're forgetting that those saved shards ARE the same as saving gcds, doesnt take a rocket scientist to see that only needing to cast 4 SBs for the same effect as 6 SBs, isnt just saving shards but also gaining gcds you can use for additional things.

    yes, you will most likely cast SB/DB anyway but if you get 1 DC proc every 15 secs, it will result in something like 90 secs of extra time over 5 minutes that would result in something like 36 extra wild imps that you wouldnt have b4 which in turn buffs the avg dmg of DB, problem is its RNG based, even if you only get 1 proc every 45 secs, you'll still get about an extra 12 wild imps over all.
    Last edited by mmoca748dddcc2; 2016-05-03 at 08:17 AM.

  18. #2278
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by almara2512 View Post
    again, like i said, it depends on how you look at it, DC alone allows you to cast fewer DEs and allows you to cast fewer SBs for the same effect, essentially you save 2 gcds alone pr every 20-30secs just due to the reduced amount of DEs you will cast, which will mean that DC will net you significantly more wild imps and thus more dmg than SI, also you're forgetting that those saved shards ARE the same as saving gcds, doesnt take a rocket scientist to see that only needing to cast 4 SBs for the same effect as 6 SBs, isnt just saving shards but also gaining gcds you can use for additional things.

    yes, you will most likely cast SB/DB anyway but if you get 1 DC proc every 15 secs, it will result in something like 90 secs of extra time over 5 minutes that would result in something like 36 extra wild imps that you wouldnt have b4 which in turn buffs the avg dmg of DB, problem is its RNG based, even if you only get 1 proc every 45 secs, you'll still get about an extra 12 wild imps over all.
    Why does DC reduce the amount of DE's cast? You need to atleast cast it every 12s, but probably more to make sure fresh minions are buffed right away. 6 per minute doesn't sound strange to me.

    If we get a proc every 15s for Dreadstalkers, we get 1 HoG per 30s in exchange for a SB. But as proc chance is lower if we account for doubles it's less of a gain.
    SI @ 6 DE per minute gives 3 insta SB's in the same time, saving 1,5s, almost 1 extra SB.

    Movement will be in favor of SI (we cast less SB, less chance to proc DC).

  19. #2279
    Deleted
    the reason why it reduces the amount of DEs casted is bcoz normally you'd go hog>DE>2db>CD>DE but with DC you'd go hog>CD>DE provided you get a proc, actually saving you 2 shards and 3 gcd(technically its more like 5,5 secs of casts you save, so its more like 3,66 gcds you save every time you get a DC proc) for summoning and buffing the same pets, ofc im aware that here you would say that my wild imps wont be buffed for their first 3 secs which is a valid point but the shards and gcds you save will more than make up for those 3 secs of lack buffs on your imps due to more imps out and a higher avg dmg on your DB, the higher avg DB dmg alone should be enough to make up for the gains of SI, then comes the dmg of the extra imps.

    if you look at just what you get while moving then yes, SI is superior to DC but you still gain so much when you dont move from DC that it might just make up for the loss and if it doesnt then you prolly should have taken shadowflame instead. SI's greatest strength is its predictability, you know exactly when you get the benefit from it, Dc doesnt have that as it is purely RNG based and as you said, you might get 2 procs in the same period of time making 1 of the procs useless but even if that happens all the time, DC should still be ahead but we'll see when the theorycrafts comes out, you might be right but i dont think you are.

  20. #2280
    Quote Originally Posted by almara2512 View Post
    the reason why it reduces the amount of DEs casted is bcoz normally you'd go hog>DE>2db>CD>DE but with DC you'd go hog>CD>DE provided you get a proc, actually saving you 2 shards and 3 gcd(technically its more like 5,5 secs of casts you save, so its more like 3,66 gcds you save every time you get a DC proc) for summoning and buffing the same pets, ofc im aware that here you would say that my wild imps wont be buffed for their first 3 secs which is a valid point but the shards and gcds you save will more than make up for those 3 secs of lack buffs on your imps due to more imps out and a higher avg dmg on your DB, the higher avg DB dmg alone should be enough to make up for the gains of SI, then comes the dmg of the extra imps.
    Assuming the Wild Imps still have a casting time themselves as well you'd effectively not really lose much by casting CD before DE. HoGs travel time + imp spawn time + first cast of Fel Firebolt for the imps would probably mean their second volley already has DE. Conjecture on my end though, but that sounds like a pretty minimal loss.

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