[BETA] Demonology Warlock Discussion

[Yorindesarin]

yeah, would be nice to get some minor glyphs to cahnge our looks a bit, i know a lot of demo locks played the spec solely to look like a demon, so adding a pair of cosmetic demonic wings shouldnt be too far off, after all our t6 gear(helm i believe) shoved the occasional wings.

CM set also procs wings on emotes. So thats two sets that literally say we are demonic and we have wings! I'd also like something for destro/affi as well say some burning up destro locks arms/neck/face scarring a bit (optional obviously) affliction looking a bit drained from the abuse of their soul/others souls... Would be nice if they started making unique tier set looks per spec... I know it would be a lot more work and the quality would probably vary greatly... But could you imagine your set looking different because you're a different spec...

[Ailil]

There perhaps isn't but it's not my argument. My argument, or opinion if you will, is that two classes shouldn't be similar in their theme and gameplay mechanics. A good example would be shadow priest and affliction warlock as well.

Lore doesn't mean anything when it comes to gameplay. I mentioned lore especially in relation to player character in a sense we are a special case, an exemption actually. In your own words warlocks traded one of their greater tools for more imps. In my opinion warlocks traded an uninteresting gameplay (from a pvp perspective) for an interesting one, a summoner class that has many minions throwing at his enemies, a mook maker. Warlocks will actually have a completely new style of combat in WoW that no other class has instead of the uninspired gameplay and copied themes of demo previously (again from a pvp and class identity perspective) and that novelty is what I am looking for in demo. Even the artifact of demo is unique, demo warlocks will be a special snowflake in Legion.

We have different opinions on the case, and I understand your position as your idea of the class is not the one Blizzard has in mind. The same thing is happening to a spec I loved previously, MM hunter, that is being transformed to a different one both in gameplay and in theme as well.

you argument of theme would make sense if DH had a ranged spec, they don't

[Deleted]

Work completely differently.

Except they don't. You transform into a demon with increased damage and survivability. It is changing from a resource stance to a cooldown, which the demo version previously was. It is a same spell both in theme and gameplay mechanics.

If your idea of a class is being slowly corrupted by fel energies and transformed into a demon, that's the new class theme, the demon hunter. Warlocks as far as player characters are concerned, only use the magic as an outside tool instead of letting it consume their bodies. You may disagree with it, but that's the current direction of the classes to diverge them.

you argument of theme would make sense if DH had a ranged spec

Why? Consider moonkin form with solar/lunar cycles for enhancement shamans. It would be okay because enhancement is a melee spec?

[Ailil]

Except they don't. You transform into a demon with increased damage and survivability. It is changing from a resource stance to a cooldown, which the demo version previously was. It is a same spell both in theme and gameplay mechanics.

If your idea of a class is being slowly corrupted by fel energies and transformed into a demon, that's the new class theme, the demon hunter. Warlocks as far as player characters are concerned, only use the magic as an outside tool instead of letting it consume their bodies. You may disagree with it, but that's the current direction of the classes to diverge them.


Why? Consider moonkin form with solar/lunar cycles for enhancement shamans. It would be okay because enhancement is a melee spec?

solar/lunar cycles is a gameplay mechanic and
gameplay mechanics =/= theme

its funny you used druids and shamans as a comparison, since they already have the same general theme (nature casters)
a better example would be frost mages and frost dk (they even have the same name!) and frost mage was not touched when dks come out

and yeah warlocks only use the magic as an outside tool with no demonic investment, except every single warlock in lore that end up as demon like...
its not like our most iconic tier give us wings or horns or anything... but you are right, if blizz wants to change a class theme they can, but don't pretend that locks are not fel infused currently, that's a lie

and if you really think current demo and DH play anything alike, there's no point arguing with you

[Yorindesarin]

Except they don't. You transform into a demon with increased damage and survivability. It is changing from a resource stance to a cooldown, which the demo version previously was. It is a same spell both in theme and gameplay mechanics.

If your idea of a class is being slowly corrupted by fel energies and transformed into a demon, that's the new class theme, the demon hunter. Warlocks as far as player characters are concerned, only use the magic as an outside tool instead of letting it consume their bodies. You may disagree with it, but that's the current direction of the classes to diverge them.

Someone hasn't done greenfire quest at all it seems. Or looked at ANY relevant lore warlocks. Whom are all corrupted with fel energy/sacrificed their beings for more power. Or do you just blatantly come up with stuff and go "Idgaf if I'm wrong!". So if DH's have that, demo locks can have it in constant stance form/passive whatever right? Ermmm that would be an easy yes. They could even change it from being named metamorphosis if they were that hard up about it. Face the facts though. Demonology != just borrowing DH's toys. It's always been unique and different. Has probably THE most interesting lore imo.

Also, DH IS not about becoming a demon. It's about forcing a demon into you so you can go "LOLOL BYE BYE ROGUES/WW MONKS/FERAL". Theres a huge difference between using a ritual to force demonic essence into you and slowly becoming corrupted by the fel magics you wield.

Both on a gameplay and theme level. It's pretty damn easy to separate it.

[Mehrunes]

I find it kinda sad that Demo Artifact is one of the few without any data about the traits. No model previews either. It's still the Artifact with the lowest amount of information about it. Not even the weapon type has been announced...

[Deleted]

I find it kinda sad that Demo Artifact is one of the few without any data about the spells. No model previews either. It's still the Artifact with the lowest amount of information about it. Not even the weapon type has been announced...

The previews have been out for some days now, and as far as I'm aware it will be a 'staff'.

[Imnick]

I find it kinda sad that Demo Artifact is one of the few without any data about the traits. No model previews either. It's still the Artifact with the lowest amount of information about it. Not even the weapon type has been announced...

The model previews are all available on WoWhead.

[Mehrunes]

The previews have been out for some days now, and as far as I'm aware it will be a 'staff'.

The model previews are all available on WoWhead.

Ah, I totally missed that. Don't frequent Wowhead too often in terms of information sources. Gotta take a look then :3

EDIT: Well, it did take a while. They have a whole guide about Artifacts that wasn't updated to include the versions of Demo Artifact, same goes for the Warlock guide. Only another Artifact database did include that. Kinda sloppy site structure.

Anyway, they look quite nice. Not sure which is the basic version is the basic one, but I'd guess it's the one with color jaw, with the metal jaw version being first upgrade. The purple shattered skull looks best in my opinion.

Still, can't wait for Demo Artifact traits.

[Count Zero]

The model previews are all available on WoWhead.

They did say a bit ago, I think a tweet, that weapon type is still being discussed. May have been listed as a staff somewhere just to fill in a blank

[Deleted]

solar/lunar cycles is a gameplay mechanic and
gameplay mechanics =/= theme

its funny you used druids and shamans as a comparison, since they already have the same general theme (nature casters)

Someone hasn't done greenfire quest at all it seems. Or looked at ANY relevant lore warlocks.

Solar/lunar cycle is a gameplay mechanic as is demonic fury and metamorphosis. Demonic fury and metamorphosis is also a part of the specific theme that was present in warlocks and was moved on to demon hunters to distinguish both classes and flesh them out in differing ways, even if both are using the same source of power. In my opinion giving metamorphosis to demon hunters and leaving it in the demo spec would be a conflict of interests in the sense of fleshing out different classes and their use of the same source of power, a conflict of themes (using fel energies to alter myself vs using fel energies to alter the environment).

I was having player character warlocks in mind, not the ones present in the lore. Green fire quest is a contradiction of the current class direction in Legion.

I don't think demon hunters and warlocks will play anything alike, I do however think having both of them access to metamorphosis as strange and a conflict of their directions, as I stated previously. Metamorphosis alone will be alike to the current one in what it does, not the class in its entirety.

[Yorindesarin]

I was having player character warlocks in mind, not the ones present in the lore. Green fire quest is a contradiction of the current class direction in Legion.

.

I believe you mean the current class direction in Legion is a direct contradiction of warlock lore? Because thats what this statement should have said. Player warlocks SHOULD move towards what NPC warlocks have and always will have done... Paladins become more and more holy. Mages become more entuned with their magics. Death Knights are gradually becoming more like Arthas. So... Why are Warlocks taking steps backwards and having stuff retconned? Not even just Meta stuff. I mean in general..

And again it doesn't have to be metamorphosis. It could be anything else. The demonic look could be a pair of wings and horns on a normal player character (human/belf/dwarf/gnome/undead/worgen/etc). Would you tell me that the tattoos/purple skin coloration/wing differences wouldn't be "unique enough" in that situation?

It just seems lazy of them... Like really lazy. If they can make fire mage and destro lock be different. Why can't they make DH and demolock play differently? Say... Demonic empowerment glyph could give the warlock demonic looks. And we could still have this "shiny new" gameplay. But nah... Lets just scrap the however many years Demonology has been in WoW (we don't count warcraft as being directly related to WoW for quite obvious reasons really mostly because the player is carving their story we aren't following the heroes we are the heroes) and drop it all for Demon Hunters. (Again not about playstyle/gameplay but lore)

[Woz]

I find it kinda sad that Demo Artifact is one of the few without any data about the traits. No model previews either. It's still the Artifact with the lowest amount of information about it. Not even the weapon type has been announced...

The previews have been out for some days now, and as far as I'm aware it will be a 'staff'.

The model previews are all available on WoWhead.

FWIW I also added them early this morning to the OP here.

Whenever I see new stuff I add it to the OP (same goes for all the pre-beta threads) or if I miss it/slow add it when someone posts it here/on the forum in general so you guys can always keep your eyes out for new info on the original post as well.

Half the challenge is configuring the post(s) to make it look not horrible (and for the artifact skins for this one had to compile images, make the compiled images instead of single ones, pita BUT ALREADY DONE).

[wholol]

Anyone else disappointed to see they're taking unholy DKs in the same direction as demo ? I mean demonology vs necromancy but sad to see DKs get so many pet summons, might even outdo demo in terms of total pets out, so much for the "summoner" spec

( Although I'm being a tad pessimistic )

[Yorindesarin]

Anyone else disappointed to see they're taking unholy DKs in the same direction as demo ? I mean demonology vs necromancy but sad to see DKs get so many pet summons, might even outdo demo in terms of total pets out, so much for the "summoner" spec

( Although I'm being a tad pessimistic )

Wait... "HERES THIS NEW UNIQUE SPEC THATS TOTALLY NEW AND UNIQUE!" *gives DKs a bigger army* though I guess it depends if their summons are going to interact as entirely their damage source or as buffs for the player?

[Deleted]

Anyone else disappointed to see they're taking unholy DKs in the same direction as demo ? I mean demonology vs necromancy but sad to see DKs get so many pet summons, might even outdo demo in terms of total pets out, so much for the "summoner" spec

( Although I'm being a tad pessimistic )

you're basically comparing demo with no artifact information with unholy with artifact talents, no point in doing that when you basically only have half the info on demo, for all you know demo's artifact puts summoning demons into overdrive, giving each demo spell a chance to randomly summon a doomguard or infernal and creates summoning portals thats open for 10 secs which summons a wild imp or dreadstalker each second, ok prolly a bit exaggerated but its too soon to make any comparisons when it comes to demo coz we dont have any info on its artifact talent but im fairly certain that there will be a lot that increases the amount of demons summoned and the dmg they do.

[Deleted]

Player warlocks SHOULD

That is all well but it's your opinion and the only weight you can give to it is lore this and lore that. Blizzard has different opinion and will retcon it if it suits them to present a more interesting and unique iteration of the class. Even demonic wings and horns would be a clash of different themes. Even as a cosmetic glyph. It doesn't work when the theme is already present (demon hunters). While it would be cool to be able to have skin options of demon hunters on warlocks as well, it most likely won't happen.

Also I don't want to defend blizzard since I disagree with the company in many ways, but calling them lazy for removing metamorphosis while they completely rework and invent a new spec that will be based on a new, unique type of gameplay is ironic.

[Jessicka]

That is all well but it's your opinion and the only weight you can give to it is lore this and lore that. Blizzard has different opinion and will retcon it if it suits them to present a more interesting and unique iteration of the class. Even demonic wings and horns would be a clash of different themes. Even as a cosmetic glyph. It doesn't work when the theme is already present (demon hunters). While it would be cool to be able to have skin options of demon hunters on warlocks as well, it most likely won't happen.

Also I don't want to defend blizzard since I disagree with the company in many ways, but calling them lazy for removing metamorphosis while they completely rework and invent a new spec that will be based on a new, unique type of gameplay is ironic.

The 'shared themes' argument is bullshit when there's a post 2 above here pointing out shared themes with DKs, not to mention the shared themes with BM Hunters.

[Deleted]

The 'shared themes' argument is bullshit when there's a post 2 above here pointing out shared themes with DKs, not to mention the shared themes with BM Hunters.

I've got to say I always felt that demon hunters would never be put in because we got a lot of their stuff. So when they announced demon hunters, to the point of showing demon transformation and even naming metamorphosis and demonic fury the same as the demo stuff... people were REALLY optimistic if they thought we were keeping those mechanics.

In a game with 36 specs its ok if there are other classes with similar-ish themes. With BM hunters and Unholy dks its not remotely surprising tbh. Well BM hunters maybe slightly as you can make the good argument that they are meant to bond with specific pets.

That said half of the 'minion theme' stuff is baked into the artefact stuff we've seen the early data for which we don't have as a perspective for demo so we won't get a better idea of the whole image of until we see what the demo artefact traits are. At this time I'm more concerned about the talents, I have enjoyed 'army of imps' playstyle before, with the lei shen trinket (even if generally that trinket made gameplay suck) and now with the class trinket when I play demo.

However... the talents indicate we are still mostly going to be about imps. Which is my main concern over everything as with the lei shen and class trinket we've DONE that. So that is my main concern, while I have no objection to an imp army, going forward I hope there is something else to sweeten demo or else I'd agree other classes are getting a better deal on that theme considering we are sacrificing the coolness of metamorphosis for a more demon heavy playstyle.

[Deleted]

The 'shared themes' argument is bullshit when there's a post 2 above here pointing out shared themes with DKs, not to mention the shared themes with BM Hunters.

DK is resurrecting buried bodies, hunter is taming wild beasts and warlock is teleporting demons from the void. What?