[Legion] Shadow Priest Discussion

[davesignal]

I think somebody asked awhile ago if the Masochism HOT from Shadow Mend stacks; it does. The trick, however, is the HOT is keyed to how much the initial heal actually does. If you spam it on yourself at maximum HP, you don't get anything. If you spam yourself up to full from 50% HP, then you get a gigantic HOT.

[Ilir]

I saw another artifact point list that was divided by spec. The numbers were a little different, but had 4 specs in the highest tier with Shadow. Though that list may have been to max out the artifact.

Mmh, shoudn't all spec require the same amount of AP for a full artefact anyway ?

[Aeriel]

Mmh, shoudn't all spec require the same amount of AP for a full artefact anyway ?

100% agreed. Most likely other specs will have levels added to their traits, so that they reach ours. The screams are coming!

[Annesh]

I think somebody asked awhile ago if the Masochism HOT from Shadow Mend stacks; it does. The trick, however, is the HOT is keyed to how much the initial heal actually does. If you spam it on yourself at maximum HP, you don't get anything. If you spam yourself up to full from 50% HP, then you get a gigantic HOT.

That's kinda cool. With how nerfed B&S is, I've been considering Masochism for pvp just to fully embrace "tankiness." I guess that's a sign of a well-designed choice. If only Mania were halfway decent.

[Ramaloce]

So random question for everyone in beta. Assuming 1v1 Shadow vs Arms (or any melee really) B&S vs Masochism which would let shadow live longer? Assuming all traits and talents are active for both sides.

On paper to me they look about almost equal in a sense, but 40% movement isn't a whole lot and the HoT requires a cast. So in your opinion which one wins out in practice overall?

[l33t]

So random question for everyone in beta. Assuming 1v1 Shadow vs Arms (or any melee really) B&S vs Masochism which would let shadow live longer? Assuming all traits and talents are active for both sides.

On paper to me they look about almost equal in a sense, but 40% movement isn't a whole lot and the HoT requires a cast. So in your opinion which one wins out in practice overall?

I don't think you can win as a shadow priest in 1v1 against arms warrior (or any melee really), no matter what talents you take. Still, if I had to choose, I'd take b&s, because for me mobility > everything else.

I think the new mind spike is a start, but no I don't like it as is if you need a black and white answer.
Also, not it is not obvious that we got less development time. Every single spec fan base will say that.

Well, if it is not obvious for you, you can just go and look at priest's class hall, then create a rogue, hunter, warrior, warlock, demonhunter, etc, etc (don't waste your time on shamans, dk and monks class halls though), and check theirs. You'll quickly see the obvious difference. One thing is whining about number tuning, which everybody does, and another thing is arguing against really obvious things.

[Ilir]

Hey, I like the Monk class hall, even tho they didn't even upgrade the island... but I always liked this Island ! But yeah, your point still stands.

(also Elemental shaman are even worse than us... their artefact ability has a cast time... and does no damage on its own, lmao)

[Aeriel]

I like the DK class hall. I mean it is the prototype for all class halls. It's problem is the lack of updates, but the lack of lore characters makes sense. We kind of killed most of them...

Our class hall is lacking. It should havebeen tied more closely to the Tears of Elune storyline.

[l33t]

(also Elemental shaman are even worse than us... their artefact ability has a cast time... and does no damage on its own, lmao)

Yeah, that's what you got when you wish your class developer to be hit by bus

[Naga Coatl]

I'm sorry, I need to vent a bit.

Frankly I find a bit amusing yet really frustrating the fact that now almost everybody on the alpha thread is complaining about the fact that SP feels like a 'raiding spec only' because of Insanity/VF and all the slow/ramp-up mechanics that they gave to us (VF itself, MH, StM – and StM+MH combo...), and how it feels bad while questing and doing dungeons. I've been questioning this class design from months now expressing the same exact concerns and everytime I did that in this thread most replies defended the SP telling me 'leveling doesn't matter', 'l2p issue', 'not a valid concern', 'Bender + SW:V and VF is not a problem', 'SP is great don't listen to who complains about quests', 'not great but doable, it's fine'... And at that time, almost nobody voiced those kind of concern on the alpha forum and there never was a serious discussion about it from what I remember – everybody seemed way more focused on the raid enviroment.

...Now that its damage has been nerfed (and everybody expected that), suddenly its basic mechanics are inadequate, not fun, a great disadvantage, “WoW is not only raiding” and so on. I think that those kind of problems were quite obvious from the beginning. SP from what I understand now is an agglomerate of weird complex mechanics that somehow feel “smooth” in raid but messy/lacking in almost every other kind of content.

Also, by the way, why pessimism and terms like “clunky” are usually bashed for being useless (if not dangerous) feedback, but optimism, unargumentative appreciations and “smooth”, which is an equally overused unclear 'feels good' adjective, are written all the time but nobody bats an eye?

/rant

Sorry again, but I'm starting to feel quite frustrated about the situation of the only spec I play. I feel like all those months of feedback have been somewhat wasted between optimism, acceptance, a too raid-focused vision, and misplaced trust in the devs.

[Ilir]

@Naga Coatl : Keep in mind that when you asked those questions, we didn't get all those insanity nerf/damage nerf. So yeah, when I said that questing was okay back then, I meant it. It's still okay now but you're not going to enjoy your priest as much as you're gonna enjoy it in dungeon/raid.

And yeah, apparently not being overly optimistic/blinded is not something acceptable... which is funny since most of our "pesimistic/trash talk" came true anyway.

- - - Updated - - -

Yeah, that's what you got when you wish your class developer to be hit by bus

wut, they said that ?

[Naga Coatl]

Keep in mind that when you asked those questions, we didn't get all those insanity nerf/damage nerf. So yeah, when I said that questing was okay back then, I meant it. It's still okay now but you're not going to enjoy your priest as much as you're gonna enjoy it in dungeon/raid.

I was not referring directly to you, who were instead one of the most nice one answering to me. I know that it was before the nerfs but still, everyone was expecting nerfs so I find strange that nobody could see beyond that. The underlying mechanics were still there.

[Ilir]

I was not referring directly to you, who were instead one of the most nice one answering to me. I know that it was before the nerfs but still, everyone was expecting nerfs so I find strange that nobody could see beyond that. The underlying mechanics were still there.

To be honest, I was expecting damage nerf. But they did a couple of insanity nerf + damage nerf so that's why I think, most people didn't really think that far.

Now, also keep in mind that a lot of people on the legion forums are complaining about ridiculous stuff. Like, there was a priest quest campaign, that required you to find a way to talk to a NPC. It wasn't really hard to understand that you needed to dispell the guy... but I guess people cried and now you only need to right click the NPC.
Also, the starter gear we get on the beta characters is aweful. Once you get a little bit of gear, mobs tend to die quite fast. I think people are kinda triggered by the fact that you actually need to use most of your toolkit now during questing (aka cc/heal/shield etc) and not just afk instant MB/instant DP.

It is not THAT bad, but then again that's my opinion. But yeah, if you're careless, you will die. (but that's true for nearly every class on the beta right now)

and don't worry, I wasn't taking your message personally or in the wrong way

[l33t]

And yeah, apparently not being overly optimistic/blinded is not something acceptable... which is funny since most of our "pesimistic/trash talk" came true anyway.

That's why I hate the "SHUT UP WE'RE FINE" elite shadowpriest club which existed since eternity. Stuff like that happens everytime. When there is an alpha/beta stage, some of us ask devs for mechanical changes, then those guys from elite club appear and start bombarding us with their "l2p", "its not an issue", "stop your whining, we're ok" idiocy. So, no changes are made, then beta ends, and the same members of elite club start asking us why didn't we give our feedback when there was alpha/beta stage.

Why do they do it? Maybe they are only pretending they are playing shadow priests, while in reality they are mages and warlocks, taking care of cloth competitors before the competition even starts. Maybe shadowfiends ate their brains, so they now can't count 2+2. Maybe they do that just to troll people. Who knows. Fact is, this exact stuff happens over and over, and over again.

I seriously feel like I would miss WoD's shadow priest A LOT.

"

wut, they said that ?

Read this link, second message..

[Naga Coatl]

Also, the starter gear we get on the beta characters is aweful. Once you get a little bit of gear, mobs tend to die quite fast. I think people are kinda triggered by the fact that you actually need to use most of your toolkit now during questing (aka cc/heal/shield etc) and not just afk instant MB/instant DP.

Reading the alpha forums, there are also 'notable names' who are complaining about those things that were a non-issue weeks ago, both for questing and for dungeons. I don't know how much gear has to do with this - I REALLY don't know, I'm not simply skeptic, but the fact that now these issues have exploded and even those who weren't proccupied aren't replying with positive/dismissive attitude surprises and worries me.

As usual, we will wait and see I suppose.

[Aeriel]

I was not referring directly to you, who were instead one of the most nice one answering to me. I know that it was before the nerfs but still, everyone was expecting nerfs so I find strange that nobody could see beyond that. The underlying mechanics were still there.

We expected downtuning, but not the degree. The Insanity nerf still has not been explained, since the last we heard months ago was that the up time on VF was where they wanted it. So, there is a major part of the problem. We expected 5-10% damage reduction, but received an across the board 15% plus an inexplicable 5-10% Insanity generation nerf.

Now the culmination of these changes have made basic play in every aspect difficult to intolerable.

[Nycros]

It's OK guys, we level poorly on our own because we have great group utility!

Our levelling is balanced around having a healer, so when you do level make sure you have one in your back pocket. No other class can Mass Dispel a teammate while levelling, so use that to your advantage!

#kappa

FYI, this is why we can't have nice things.

[Ilir]

Reading the alpha forums, there are also 'notable names' who are complaining about those things that were a non-issue weeks ago, both for questing and for dungeons. I don't know how much gear has to do with this - I REALLY don't know, I'm not simply skeptic, but the fact that now these issues have exploded and even those who weren't proccupied aren't replying with positive/dismissive attitude surprises and worries me.

As usual, we will wait and see I suppose.

Mmh, if you could find some quotes or something because that kinda surprises me. I didn't feel like levelling was a "chore" tbh. The only thing that pissed me off was the freaking lag which basically makes SP unplayable since the insanity decay continues while you can't cast any spell.

- - - Updated - - -

That's why I hate the "SHUT UP WE'RE FINE" elite shadowpriest club which existed since eternity. Stuff like that happens everytime. When there is an alpha/beta stage, some of us ask devs for mechanical changes, then those guys from elite club appear and start bombarding us with their "l2p", "its not an issue", "stop your whining, we're ok" idiocy. So, no changes are made, then beta ends, and the same members of elite club start asking us why didn't we give our feedback when there was alpha/beta stage.

Why do they do it? Maybe they are only pretending they are playing shadow priests, while in reality they are mages and warlocks, taking care of cloth competitors before the competition even starts. Maybe shadowfiends ate their brains, so they now can't count 2+2. Maybe they do that just to troll people. Who knows. Fact is, this exact stuff happens over and over, and over again.

I seriously feel like I would miss WoD's shadow priest A LOT.

"

Read this link, second message..

I won't miss WoD's SP but I do agree that it is kinda upsetting to see that some of the core problems of the spec haven't been touched. Mostly because we got told that "it's okay, we have 1 talent that's cool, we're fine !" or "dw we got that legendary !" (which has been nerfed since but shh). But, it's also a dev issue... for some reasons, they tend not to listen/are dead set on their opinions and won't change it.
We have to also keep in mind, that people like Isentropy were complaining about the way some people expressed those concerns like "blizzard you suck, you hate us, we're garbage" without explaining why and what was wrong... which just makes the dev ignore it/annoyed and move on to another spec.

And wow about that shaman thing. Tho, to be fair... Shaman is kinda left out in the dust but I guess this could explain why (those "get hit by a bus" comments are the ones I think we can agree are totally counterproductive.)

[Naga Coatl]

Mmh, if you could find some quotes or something because that kinda surprises me. I didn't feel like levelling was a "chore" tbh. The only thing that pissed me off was the freaking lag which basically makes SP unplayable since the insanity decay continues while you can't cast any spell.

I PMd you.

[l33t]

I won't miss WoD's SP but I do agree that it is kinda upsetting to see that some of the core problems of the spec haven't been touched. Mostly because we got told that "it's okay, we have 1 talent that's cool, we're fine !" or "dw we got that legendary !" (which has been nerfed since but shh). But, it's also a dev issue... for some reasons, they tend not to listen/are dead set on their opinions and won't change it.
We have to also keep in mind, that people like Isentropy were complaining about the way some people expressed those concerns like "blizzard you suck, you hate us, we're garbage" without explaining why and what was wrong... which just makes the dev ignore it/annoyed and move on to another spec.

I dunno, lets compare:

In WoD we had a higly mobile spec which operated on almost faster than light's speeds, with bursty aoe capabilities, with superb self-healing and lots of utility.

In legion we have none of the above. Shadowmend heals like a wet noodle and has a fucking cast time. We have no (zero) aoe capabilities at all. Everything is very clunky, rotation is unfun and tedious, and due to everything having fucking cast time it feels like everything is 500x slower than it was in WoD. We lost: DR from glyphed fade, Angelic bulwark/Desperate prayer, Life grip/reverse life grip, feathers, instant self-healing from DP, instant mind blast, double SWD, reflective shield, glyph which lowers CD on silence, psychic horror, mind blast's crit symbol, fear ward, Prayer of healing, Void tendrils, glyph of mind spike. We lost glyph of dark archangel, can't anymore use both glyph of shadowform and glyph of shadow friends which makes our mounts and pets in shadowform as well. Due to losing all of the above, I can't but feel like I am playing a lvl 30-45 character, with no abilities and stuff... (I have that absurd feeling on almost all specs I've tried in Legion beta). Yeah we have artifact - in which we have to waste 2x more artifact power than other classes to unlock all golden traits, of which only one golden trait is truly good, others two are either shitty shite random tentacle which spawns from our least used ability or nerfed to a ground pseudo-cleave mechanics. Our artifact ability is very hard to use anywhere because it is not castable on the move and kickable, and we have most non-damage traits among all caster specs. Did I miss something? Maybe I should mention the nerfing of void form visuals, with less tentacles and stuff?

Wait till prepatch hits live. I want to be optimistic about legion, I truly am; but sadly I feel like Legion would be the last nail in the coffin for lots of people. Its just... kinda weird feeling when you can't find anything, anything at all to like in a spec you've played for years. What does that mean? That mean that my option does not matter to developers anymore, I am not a target auditory for changes they make. Just wait, you'll see.