[Legion] Discipline Priest Discussion

[Argantis]

No it's not.

"shield blanketing" done with a 2.5sec cast spell and PWS on a 6sec cd? Are you serious?

Rough maths says yea he is serious

with general haste levels, thats still 8-10 shielded players at a time. and if the spell co-efficient on CoW is still good, then it will be very powerful

[Totaltotemic]

@Atonement

Your spreadsheet has Atonement listed as 55.5% transfer, but do you know for sure that the mastery is multiplicative and not additive? It seems a little weak for something that will only end up being around half of total healing to be increasing at the same rate as other healer masteries that typically affect everything (Deep Healing being the most straight-forward comparison these days).

[Yunzi]

Wow - let's consider two new items in the "Talents and Specializations" section for Discipline:

Shadow Covenant: Draw on the power of shadow to heal up to 5 injured allies within 30 yds of the target for (450% of Spell power), but leaving a shell on them that absorbs the next [((Spell power * 2.25) + 0) * (1 + $versadmg)] healing they receive.

Awesome for high burst damage followed by moderate or less damage.

Purge the Wicked: Cleanse the target with fire, causing (150% of Spell power) Fire damage and an additional (650% of Spell power) Fire damage over until cancelled. Spreads to an additional nearby enemy when you cast Penance on the target.

Fire mages might get a little jealous here, and this should do some very nice healing in add phases, especially when the adds don't last long enough for SWP application.

Both of these talents/specs raise the skill cap of the discipline spec even higher. I'm getting a little concerned that there may be few willing to play it.

[Myllior]

*cough Myllior cough*

You called?

Neat work putting that together; thanks for it. Holy's base spells need to have Prayer of Mending added to it (66.6% of SP up to 5 times; costs 2% of base mana). Since you've included Clarity of Will, it may be worth including all the talented heals that have been data-mined at the moment, perhaps including a tag or something to indicate that the heal is not baseline. These would then be,

Discipline:
Penance (The Penitent): Heals with 3 bolts over 2 seconds; each bolt heals for 200% of SP. Presumably the same 2.5% mana cost.
Power Word: Solace: Deals 200% of SP as damage and restores 0.75% of maximum mana.
Purge the Wicked: Causes 150% of SP as damage and a further 650% "over until cancelled" (an assumption would have to be made re how long the DoT effect lasts). Costs 2% of base mana.
Shadow Covenant: Heals 5 allies for 450% of SP but leaves a healing absorption effect for 225% of SP on each target. Costs 8% of base mana.

Holy:
Binding Heal: Heals caster, target and a third for 200% of SP each. Costs 3% of base mana.
Circle of Healing: Heals up to 5 allies for 300% of SP each. Costs 5% of base mana.

That the cast time of Smite has been increased to 2 seconds seems a little odd, but I guess they don't want Discipline's efficient spells to be too fast. I do like that the SP coefficients all seem to be getting nice, round numbers; no more Flash Heal having an SP coefficient of 332.657% vs. Heal's 332.64% .

Fuck i hope i get beta

Could not have said it better myself.

Your spreadsheet has Atonement listed as 55.5% transfer, but do you know for sure that the mastery is multiplicative and not additive?

You do make a good point, but ultimately we can't know until Beta, at which point, once SP coefficients and the like have been tested and confirmed, it will take only a few moments to figure it out.

[CorpShephard]

I'm honestly shocked at how strong PW:S looks given their absorb rhetoric. I don't really get "Purge the Wicked". What does "until canceled" mean on a DoT? If it is not a DoT then why can you explode the effect with Penance?

I refuse to believe that they're keeping Clarity of Will in. This data-mining has been an interesting window into the sorts of talents and spells that we might expect but I think beta or data-mining closer to beta will be more fruitful at figuring out what a Discipline priest in Legion will really be like.

[Myllior]

I refuse to believe that they're keeping Clarity of Will in. This data-mining has been an interesting window into the sorts of talents and spells that we might expect but I think beta or data-mining closer to beta will be more fruitful at figuring out what a Discipline priest in Legion will really be like.

There have been a couple of tweets about this, pointing out that what we've seen may include old things slated for removal and even new things that have already been cut, amongst whatever is currently intended to be kept.

[bloodmoth13]

I love the new direction of Discipline priests! Their new kit looks amazing! really excited to see how it plays out

[PosPosPos]

No it's not.

"shield blanketing" done with a 2.5sec cast spell and PWS on a 6sec cd? Are you serious?

If you can't do simple multiplication and division, this isn't the place for you.

@Atonement

Your spreadsheet has Atonement listed as 55.5% transfer, but do you know for sure that the mastery is multiplicative and not additive? It seems a little weak for something that will only end up being around half of total healing to be increasing at the same rate as other healer masteries that typically affect everything (Deep Healing being the most straight-forward comparison these days).

It doesn't have to be weak because we don't know the exact stat conversion. Just because it's multiplicative, doesn't mean it isn't something like 5 mastery for 1%.

[Deleted]

@Atonement

Your spreadsheet has Atonement listed as 55.5% transfer, but do you know for sure that the mastery is multiplicative and not additive? It seems a little weak for something that will only end up being around half of total healing to be increasing at the same rate as other healer masteries that typically affect everything (Deep Healing being the most straight-forward comparison these days).

It doesn't have to be weak because we don't know the exact stat conversion. Just because it's multiplicative, doesn't mean it isn't something like 5 mastery for 1%.

I don't think they change mastery rating on a spec basis. So far they've kept ratings the same for every class (at 100, it's 110 for every 1%).

It's not too bad if it's multiplicative, due to the way these heals works. Aditive would mean every 1% of mastery would increase our atonement healing by 3-4% (since that's the number of targets we'll usually have atonement on). Multiplicative makes this go down to 1.5-2%.

Our scaling is a bit crazy though. Every point of mastery will increase our healing by 0.5% per atonement target. Every % of crit should gives us 1% of extra healing per atonement target and 1% extra damage.

We still need to see if atonement will double dip on versatility (increasing both the damage of the spell and the atonement healing). If it does, it will be crazy good to us, giving us 2% extra healing for every atonement target for every 1% versatility. It would probably be our best stat (and provide defensive bonuses too, yay), even if it still requires more rating per % than crit and mastery. If it doesn't double dip, it'll be worse than crit.

Our stat scaling will probably be something like
Vers > Crit > Haste > Mastery (if vers double dips)
Crit > Vers > Haste > Mastery (if vers doesn't double dips)

If you wonder why mastery will be our worse stat, it's because it only affects our atonement healing, while the other will increase our damage (thus increasing atonement healing) and our direct healing. Mastery should be avoided like the plague.

Haste may fluctuate, it's not as straightforward as 1% haste means on average 1% more damage/healing.

It'll be interesting to see how blizzard will address this crazy scaling, as i don't think any other healer has a over 2% healing increase per stat % scaling.

[Totaltotemic]

I don't think they change mastery rating on a spec basis. So far they've kept ratings the same for every class (at 100, it's 110 for every 1%).

It's not too bad if it's multiplicative, due to the way these heals works. Aditive would mean every 1% of mastery would increase our atonement healing by 3-4% (since that's the number of targets we'll usually have atonement on). Multiplicative makes this go down to 1.5-2%.

No, many specs have different amounts than that, even current Disc does. You can extrapolate how much rating is 1% though because the base amount is always roughly equal to 10% Crit in rating and power (e.g. in an ideal world 13% absorption and 6% healing would be roughly 10% more healing, Echo of Light and Harmony are straight-up 10% more healing base).

Also you're looking at the additive amount the wrong way. 50% to 51% is just a 2% increase, doesn't matter if that's on 1 target or 20. If it's multiplicative, then it's a 1% increase instead of 2%. It's just a matter of whether it's one power level or double that power level, and unless Atonement is going to account for 90% of healing the multiplicative version is pretty weak.

Either way though, tuning is forthcoming, but personally I'd assume additive right now.

[Deleted]

No, many specs have different amounts than that, even current Disc does. You can extrapolate how much rating is 1% though because the base amount is always roughly equal to 10% Crit in rating and power (e.g. in an ideal world 13% absorption and 6% healing would be roughly 10% more healing, Echo of Light and Harmony are straight-up 10% more healing base).

Also you're looking at the additive amount the wrong way. 50% to 51% is just a 2% increase, doesn't matter if that's on 1 target or 20. If it's multiplicative, then it's a 1% increase instead of 2%. It's just a matter of whether it's one power level or double that power level, and unless Atonement is going to account for 90% of healing the multiplicative version is pretty weak.

Either way though, tuning is forthcoming, but personally I'd assume additive right now.

That is true, the way i saw it was wrong. And i didn't notice it's 110 rating for a mastery point, not %.

[Isheria]

In other news archangel and dark archangel are now PvP talents on the same row. Archangel Dark Archangel

[PosPosPos]

In other news archangel and dark archangel are now PvP talents on the same row. Archangel Dark Archangel

Too bad Dark Archangel isn't available in PvE.

[Totaltotemic]

That is true, the way i saw it was wrong. And i didn't notice it's 110 rating for a mastery point, not %.

Hey no worries, the mastery system is still really convoluted. It'll be a lot easier to see how all this comes together once we get in-game.

Speaking of mastery, anyone see yet how weird it is that mastery does not increase damage, but every other star does? That could come into play if the DPS is tuned high enough to be a really relevant thing. I'd like to see mastery be the best healing throughput stat because of this though, otherwise it simply provides less to the raid if it's equal in healing to everything else.

[Deleted]

You can't blanket anything with Clarity of Will and it will have 0 benefit from mastery. You will be lucky to do half of the other healers' healing if you attempt to do that, most likely getting nowhere near.

It does have its uses of course and I'm glad it's staying for that, but it's not going to be your primary raidheal like PWS currently is.

[Franarok]

I think Blizz will change that mastery. The way it is at the moment is totally useless. Mastery raise "some" of our heals (and those heals depend of multiple factors). But not increase damage and not increase the normal heals

Any other stat will provide at least the double of help to the raid because will increase our normal heals, our damage and our heal/damage.




If they let mastery as it is..........


Still think that they have the concept of the discipline but still need to work on it. Think the mastery and current atonement system need to be improved a lot

[Deleted]

Yeah, the mastery is pretty meh but at least the base value seems relatively decent. It indeed is very restrictive, though, and gives massive anti-synergy to many otherwise cool-looking talents. It's also strange that it is the only secondary stat that doesn't actually increase our damage dealt(which also increases healing). I honestly think that if it was something like "Increases Atonement healing by 11% and increases damage dealt by 5.5%" it would make far more sense. Currently, though, it renders talents like Grace and Shadow Covenant worthless. I also don't understand why none of the talents apply Atonement - It feels like I'd be wasting GCDs by not spending them all on either applying Atonement or doing Atonement healing.

lvl 90 Row is really what I have the biggest issues with - It seems like it has zero synergy with anything we want to do. You get Halo for the heal or Clarity of Will if you need to cheese mechanics or are in 5mans, yes, but it still feels out of place. This would IMO be a good spot for a Halo that both deals damage(doing atonement healing) and heals allies, with reduced effects of course. Same deal with Divine Star, and Clarity of Will should apply Atonement. Just so that it'd feel like it makes sense.

[Totaltotemic]

You can't blanket anything with Clarity of Will and it will have 0 benefit from mastery. You will be lucky to do half of the other healers' healing if you attempt to do that, most likely getting nowhere near.

It does have its uses of course and I'm glad it's staying for that, but it's not going to be your primary raidheal like PWS currently is.

I agree that CoW blanketing won't be a thing. It will probably primarily be used to cheese mechanics like on Iron Maidens or to spam tanks like on Tyrant, a niche talent that's OP as hell at what it does, but what it does isn't very applicable most of the time.

Yeah, the mastery is pretty meh but at least the base value seems relatively decent. It indeed is very restrictive, though, and gives massive anti-synergy to many otherwise cool-looking talents. It's also strange that it is the only secondary stat that doesn't actually increase our damage dealt(which also increases healing). I honestly think that if it was something like "Increases Atonement healing by 11% and increases damage dealt by 5.5%" it would make far more sense. Currently, though, it renders talents like Grace and Shadow Covenant worthless. I also don't understand why none of the talents apply Atonement - It feels like I'd be wasting GCDs by not spending them all on either applying Atonement or doing Atonement healing.

lvl 90 Row is really what I have the biggest issues with - It seems like it has zero synergy with anything we want to do. You get Halo for the heal or Clarity of Will if you need to cheese mechanics or are in 5mans, yes, but it still feels out of place. This would IMO be a good spot for a Halo that both deals damage(doing atonement healing) and heals allies, with reduced effects of course. Same deal with Divine Star, and Clarity of Will should apply Atonement. Just so that it'd feel like it makes sense.

15 - The Penitent doesn't use Atonement but instead heals directly, while the other two are single target/AoE variants of Penance for damage.

30 - Not relevant to healing or damage

45 - Not relevant to healing or damage

60 - Solace does damage, Shield Discipline seems to be more for when you're in a fight with constant damage (and is more about the mana than actually increasing healing or damage), and Mindbender is the auto-pilot AFK mana button it always has been.

75 - Literally all 3 of them interact with Atonement, with Contrition being the only one that doesn't actually directly affect damage done, but it indirectly does because you'll probably spend less time applying Atonement and more time doing damage.

90 - Agree that this talent row seems out of place. CoW should apply Atonement, and both DS/Halo should return to doing damage.

100 - This is an odd row because Shadow Covenant doesn't fit with the "I want to do damage" build or the "screw Atonement; I'm a healer" build. It's a really interesting ability on its own, but I feel like it needs to apply Atonement. PtW and Grace are both great talent designs though.

So yeah TL;DR there are a couple of problem talents that don't interact with Atonement whatsoever. Comprehensive list:

Things that should probably apply Atonement to their targets
-The Penitent Penance heal
-Clarity of Will
-Shadow Covenant

Things that should probably interact with damage done [and therefore Atonement healing] in some way
-Shadowfiend/Mindbender (does "all damage" include pet damage? If not, why is Shadowfiend still a thing for Disc?)
-Divine Star
-Halo

[Deleted]

Yeah, Shadow Covenant probably should apply Atonement at 7 seconds base just like Radiance does for it to make any sense Or maybe that would be too much? Still, it applies a 225% healing absorb that's very difficult to actually get rid of if they don't have Atonement applied to them. The Penitent should definitely apply it as well.

The main issue I do have with Grace is that first off it's linear and secondly, it makes you stop applying atonements to others. I guess it's OK for tank healing with Clarity of Will? But it feels like it's going to fall off incredibly hard with more gear. And when you consider you're losing out on a 800% spell damage Atonement spell on a low cooldown...

75 is a nice talent row in my opinion. Just Twist of Fate not applying on damage is a bit meh.

[bloodmoth13]

Yeah, Shadow Covenant probably should apply Atonement at 7 seconds base just like Radiance does for it to make any sense Or maybe that would be too much? Still, it applies a 225% healing absorb that's very difficult to actually get rid of if they don't have Atonement applied to them. The Penitent should definitely apply it as well.

The main issue I do have with Grace is that first off it's linear and secondly, it makes you stop applying atonements to others. I guess it's OK for tank healing with Clarity of Will? But it feels like it's going to fall off incredibly hard with more gear. And when you consider you're losing out on a 800% spell damage Atonement spell on a low cooldown...

75 is a nice talent row in my opinion. Just Twist of Fate not applying on damage is a bit meh.

I imagine you use power word radiance to mark them, shadow covenant to keep them alive then ramp up your DPS, Its really a more of a borrowed time ability, They take no damage but also take no healing for a few seconds.
This i think is a big theme for this version of discipline, their heals are all quick but weak or powerful with drawbacks, their true sustained, reliable healing is done through DPS. their real greater heal etc is smite, not plea.
Basically, heals are up front with poor sustain while dps is sustained but ramps up

Looking really interesting, love the inquisitor style purge the wicked ability