Flametongue the new unleash? Why not just buff Windfury?

[Razaron]

I'm too lazy to scroll this thread seeking out if my response has been said, so I'll say my response. First off, their is no beta. So this is kind of a silly thread as for we don't even know how much the minor damage will be. Secondly, we haven't seen any talents. Or what the rest of Doomhammer allows us to spec into, Third, one of the traits we have seen, is spirit wolves proc windfury. You can't have Windfury do big damage, then let wolves proc it, because it would just be a bit op.

I know we don't know all the details at the moment....

Yes, I know it's speculation and the numbers haven't been released but surely we can discuss some of the things that have been announced, the blizzard devs have asked for feedback. It says a lot that even you said you were to lazy to read the thread, get off your high horse.

[nazrakin]

I have no problem with having a maintenance abilitiy, like a dot. However:

-Current ft is trash. It is weak, passive damage that doesn't do anything synergy-wise either. This spell is the same, but requires maintenance. The one good thing about current FT is that it doesn't bother us in our execution. This one does. It still has no synergy, still is weak, but requires additional attention => bad

- As it is a maintenance cd now that doesn't deal direct damage, it becomes more similar to current UE. Blizz told us they would remove it, and give us a more or less clone of it, but with less synergy. UE is as unpopular as FT among enh.

-Compare it to wotlk's MagmaTotem, both are a maintenance dot, so to speak. The former though had longer duration, no cd, and did aoe damage.

- Compare it to Flame Shock, and you require melee uptime, deal no initial damage, have no synergy as FS has/had, have longer cd and lower duration


Atm this reminds me of totems, which only have disadvantages when compared to other stuff, no matter how you compare it. Only difference is that this is enhancement intern. They managed to take 4 lesser abilities and make a hybrid of them that unifies the worst aspects of each in it. DAFUG?

What could make up for all that crap though would be FT dmg to work like WF in relation to MW generation (though that would make passive MW generation possibly shoot through the roof to much, so likely not). Another way would be interaction with WF (FT being able to proc WF, or WF extra strikes dealing that extra fire damage (also unlikely, imo).

Actually, FT does deal initial damage so I wouldn't really call it a maintenance buff. Maintenance buffs are abilities that do nothing except buff... UE, savage roar, SnD, Inquisition. Tiger eye brew, ect. FT deals "moderate damage" upfront and followed by "minor damage" over time, pretty much making it a melee FlS.

[Razaron]

Actually, FT does deal initial damage so I wouldn't really call it a maintenance buff. Maintenance buffs are abilities that do nothing except buff... UE, savage roar, SnD, Inquisition. Tiger eye brew, ect. FT deals "moderate damage" upfront and followed by "minor damage" over time, pretty much making it a melee FlS.

Even though it does both damage and is a buff, I would personally consider it more of a buff spell. It doesn't matter when you use it, you want to have it on 100% of the time and to me that just feels like a buff, no matter what type of damage it does. SnD obviously increases your DMG output as well, I know it doesn't do any DD but you can see my meaning. Anyway, we're arguing over terminology and I guess it's how we personally feel about it.

[Kanzerbb]

Yes, I know it's speculation and the numbers haven't been released but surely we can discuss some of the things that have been announced, the blizzard devs have asked for feedback. It says a lot that even you said you were to lazy to read the thread, get off your high horse.

"It says a lot that even you said you were to lazy to read the thread, get off your high horse. " I'm trying to think of a civil way to respond to that but honestly I don't care so here we go. First off, I'm not on a high horse. I'm just tired of the bitching and complaining that I see on a daily basis from people who want to reroll or think that "x skill does minor y damage" is permanent and how the game is going to be released, sure we can speculate, and that's precisely what I did, I gave three reasons as to why I didn't agree with your post of buffing windfury. This response isn't intended to offend you so before you respond with some bizarre comment of hatred towards me and my comment, I'm specifically stating why I didn't agree with why you're questioning us getting a cast-able flametongue and no changes to windfury.

Edit: I forgot to answer your comment on "Feedback" speculative feedback over paper changes isn't nearly as dynamic as the changes of an actual beta would be. Just saying :c - I don't agree on receiving feedback on paper changes unless it would lead to enough of x players bitching about y change that they either revert it, change it, or make it a better change. But again, beta...

[Razaron]

"It says a lot that even you said you were to lazy to read the thread, get off your high horse. " I'm trying to think of a civil way to respond to that but honestly I don't care so here we go. First off, I'm not on a high horse. I'm just tired of the bitching and complaining that I see on a daily basis from people who want to reroll or think that "x skill does minor y damage" is permanent and how the game is going to be released, sure we can speculate, and that's precisely what I did, I gave three reasons as to why I didn't agree with your post of buffing windfury. This response isn't intended to offend you so before you respond with some bizarre comment of hatred towards me and my comment, I'm specifically stating why I didn't agree with why you're questioning us getting a cast-able flametongue and no changes to windfury.

If you bothered to read through the thread you'd see I've been very kind and accepting to people's opinions, even embraced one. Nobody here is bitching or complaining we're just sensibly discussing the topic on hand, I think you've spent too long in the Legion Preview thread where it's very negative about any of the changes. I don't hold hatred towards anyone, I don't know why you're predicting that either? I just don't find it humble coming in to a thread, calling it silly and saying you were too lazy to read it that's all.

[nazrakin]

Even though it does both damage and is a buff, I would personally consider it more of a buff spell. It doesn't matter when you use it, you want to have it on 100% of the time and to me that just feels like a buff, no matter what type of damage it does. SnD obviously increases your DMG output as well, I know it doesn't do any DD but you can see my meaning. Anyway, we're arguing over terminology and I guess it's how we personally feel about it.

That is pretty much any spell with a prominent DOT or buff/debuff component, most rotations revolve around maintaining them 100% of the time. The lack dd in things like SnD is pretty much the reason you see people cite those types of skills as being "boring". You are right that its mostly semantics and about what feels good.

[Kanzerbb]

If you bothered to read through the thread you'd see I've been very kind and accepting to people's opinions, even embraced one. Nobody here is bitching or complaining we're just sensibly discussing the topic on hand, I think you've spent too long in the Legion Preview thread where it's very negative about any of the changes. I don't hold hatred towards anyone, I don't know why you're predicting that either? I just don't find it humble coming in to a thread, calling it silly and saying you were too lazy to read it that's all.

I meant to say no one was bitching or complaining but I guess that slipped through my point. Secondly, you missed my point. I said I was too lazy to scroll the thread to see if my response had already been said, never said I was too lazy to read it, the only thing I needed to read was the topic and your first post. The hatred comment was said to negate any kind retaliation you had for my response to the high horse business. Obviously been a misunderstanding and miss judgement. Needless to say, a buff to windfury would be nice, I agree, as you can see, Shaman is my main. But I don't want anything getting touched until we have a finished preview, I don't want to deal with OMGWTFWF procs going from me being excited to come home from work just to randomly run around killing things because the tornado's that spawn on me are raping everything to my auto attack hitting 15x harder than wf. The entirety of my point of being here is to get you to wait till later, and then ask questions like this.

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Also I demand that you give me your Kor'kron armor.

[Razaron]

Also I demand that you give me your Kor'kron armor.

http://www.mmo-champion.com/threads/...1#post35015524 is my transmog :-)

as you can see I was ahead of the curve with the off-hand elemental weapon.

[Kanzerbb]

http://www.mmo-champion.com/threads/...1#post35015524 is my transmog :-)

as you can see I was ahead of the curve with the off-hand elemental weapon.

http://imgur.com/a/TLRZF

I miss being a male Orc.

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http://render-api-us.worldofwarcraft.../race/25-1.jpg

The cm axes are fun but I just don't enjoy them and cm gear on a Panda. mebbe go dwarf or draenei soon.

[kosajk]

It's fun to hit something and then see a Tornado spawn on your character and the mobs health go down fast from it.

idd it is as it was been in vanilla when fight with shaman last to WF proc (or two if you were facing tank) it was been really nice times but lets be realistic it will not come back

[Deleted]

Actually, FT does deal initial damage so I wouldn't really call it a maintenance buff. Maintenance buffs are abilities that do nothing except buff... UE, savage roar, SnD, Inquisition. Tiger eye brew, ect. FT deals "moderate damage" upfront and followed by "minor damage" over time, pretty much making it a melee FlS.

Wow, you're right. Dunno how I missed that. Now I find it even dumber that it has only 10y range, as we could use it as a LB substitute for pulling otherwhise, saving space.

[Kanzerbb]

idd it is as it was been in vanilla when fight with shaman last to WF proc (or two if you were facing tank) it was been really nice times but lets be realistic it will not come back

It's fine with the current class trinket. Also blizzard stated it's not going to suck.

"Check out the other clarifications we've made; it does generate Maelstrom, and is not minor (total) damage." There is hope.

[Deleted]

I will not be the quick to judge here, before we see the whole picture. Some mention the lack of synergy, but there could be such, just we don't see it yet.

And it's not comparable with the current UE. Nobody complained about UE back in the days when it did do damage. UE become the forum bitch when they removed that, otherwise less than moderate, damage component. People just like when they press a button, to see the result of that, be that a number on top of the enemy's head, or at least some cool cinematic (looking at you, wings).

But this is not the case with FT, so there are high chances for it to be well received by community (or, just received).

[Deleted]

Well, UE did start to receive quite some flak once they removed the initial damage, but part of what made it useful in regards to that was the very high range of the ability, allowing us to range pull and instant tag stuff far away. Legion FT has only 10y range though.
I can literally see their train of thought in this design. They want to design us with a much more melee heavy mentality.
-Instead of an elemental-esque flame shock, we get a buff that adds melee damage
-Instead of our melee strikes being the lead-ups towards a dmg spell/heal, they are the main even we have to work towards
-Rockbiter, while it by all acounts looks elemental-esque, gets at least an enhance-esque name, maybe we'll see more visually or otherwhise in the future to make it look more enhaney still
-Sundering and Crackling Lightning are visually elemental-esque, but are woven in with melee in that they do cone damage (traditionally melee territory) and are triggered by smashing the weapons into the ground

=> all in all much more focus on melee, which I like. We've also got a lot of earth magic going on via rockbiter and sundering (though still no frost probably)

I am unsure however wether or not I like FT's new iteration even so. In this last decade, neither RB nor FT ever felt exciting to use, and for the most part weren't used at all (RB only for imbue twisting from cata onwards, FT only from wotlk onwards (and only because they kept spamming it with extra passive buffs like increased spell damage, LL damage, Searing Flame interraction etc., it never was good by itself, nor exciting as an ability/dmg source)