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  1. #21
    Quote Originally Posted by nazrakin View Post
    Yep, fingers crossed. The thing that worries me most is that it sounds like FlS is gone entirely from the Enh kit and we dont have anything to spread in its place.
    Easy sollution would be:
    1st use within 20 seconds doesn't trigger the gcd and goes off of the shaman, applying a debuff/dot to all targets that where hit. The second FN would then go off of all afflicted targets. This would preserve FN as is, while allowing aoe seperated from single target abilities, making it self sufficient and usable as an independable talent. It would also make it usable against older content, as you wouldn't kill enemies with single target damage prior to setting up aoe. It would also lower set up time.

    @Wordup: thanks for this post and video. I am especially thankful for your balanced view on these changes, instead of focusing on doom and gloom only, not missing the chances this provides. This is really one important time for them to make things right they did wrong for...in some cases, a decade.

  2. #22
    Quote Originally Posted by Yopparai View Post
    This is interesting. There have been a few quotes from devs mentioning that they are moving away from giving specific niches to classes. Though they mentioned that classes will still be good at certain things (monk clone cleave and outlaw flurry for example). I'm interpreting this as well have talents to better suit different situations. For example, one tier would have a single target talent, a cleave talent and an AoE talent. Allowing better customization between fights. I'm just looking forward to being more than an AoE machine.
    The impression I got was that they were going to try to balance out Patchwerk damage, and have different specs shine in different circumstances. I was very happy to hear that, as it matches my opinion perfectly. Single target should be within a few percentage points, and the differentiation should come from sustained vs burst, and different utility. If they remove all the differentiation between the specs, then when a spec did particularly well in an encounter, it'd have to be nerfed. I don't mind a world where Arms is great for cleave, Enhance is good for AoE, and Arcane is able to take advantage of trinket procs (Though Doom Nova seems a trifle too far). I think it'd be nice if Enhance and Elemental had different strengths. If classes are all equally good in every circumstance, then homogenization has gone so far that many would just play the spec that is the easiest mechanically once the raid has all the buffs it needs. Strengths and weaknesses are spice to the soup of raiding.

    Quote Originally Posted by nazrakin View Post
    I really hope so. Between Ascendance, Feral Spirits, and the Fire elemental I think that Enhancement still has one too many big CDs. The puppies are iconic for the spec, Ascendance is at least mechanically interesting, while the FE is just this fire and forget thing you hit every 5 minutes. Getting rid of it also means that they can give the puppies back their pet bar and make them a bit more involved.
    Honestly, I hope that we've only got Wolves and maybe Ascendance left as a baseline cooldowns. Strong Wolves with a pet bar, maybe. Then we can have Passive/Active options in the Talent tree. Wishlisting, I could hope for Ascendance to be a toggle like Blade Flurry, where it has a cooldown to reactivate, gives us a DPS penalty for being at range, but then gives us a full kit of instant range abilities with a 30y range. Could be interesting. Pure and utter wishful thinking, of course.

    Quote Originally Posted by Omanley1 View Post
    Easy sollution would be:
    1st use within 20 seconds doesn't trigger the gcd and goes off of the shaman, applying a debuff/dot to all targets that where hit. The second FN would then go off of all afflicted targets. This would preserve FN as is, while allowing aoe seperated from single target abilities, making it self sufficient and usable as an independable talent. It would also make it usable against older content, as you wouldn't kill enemies with single target damage prior to setting up aoe. It would also lower set up time.
    This sounds like it could be a talent option that could work. Maybe goes off of current target instead of the Shaman, though. I really like the idea of Battle Mage, with hybrid melee and ranged aspects. Not a popular opinion, at present, but I like it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Omanley1 View Post
    @Wordup: thanks for this post and video. I am especially thankful for your balanced view on these changes, instead of focusing on doom and gloom only, not missing the chances this provides. This is really one important time for them to make things right they did wrong for...in some cases, a decade.
    Yeah, we've got a lot of doom and gloom guys. Myself included, somewhat. Mostly I think many people are worried that when Blizzard threw away the current design, they've got a lot of room to really mess things up. This is a more comprehensive overhaul than Arms got for WoD, and that playstyle is truly awful and is a shadow of its former self. We'll see what happens, if things don't line up for some, there's other specs to try. Windwalker looks particularly promising to me.

  3. #23
    High Overlord Bastiram's Avatar
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    Thank you wordup for doing this, very much appreciated. As one of the people actually looking forward to these changes, I have been playing Enhancement Shaman since BC and mained it since Ulduar, it is about time we get some changes. I am just happy we did not get a new "holy power" though a cap at 100 makes Maelstrom an awful lot like Fury :/
    Quote Originally Posted by Paf View Post
    Judging by the amount of Earth Shocks cast (27), you seem to be using it too often. It is 100% the end of your priority. You perform every action you possibly can before resorting to Earth Shock. This includes hurling your boots at the enemy and writing insulting limericks to make it feel bad.

  4. #24

  5. #25
    Mechagnome Xanda's Avatar
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    Few things noticed.

    Elementals only for ele (YES)
    Lightning bolt for enha is instant and consume maelstrom
    Lightning shield becomes a mini cd (dunno if a talent or baseline)
    Stormlash is back for enha wtf

    and a lot more, these are just a few
    Ah yea, Earth Elemental has become a defensive cd for elemental and allies (shamanistic rage is enha and resto now)
    Last edited by Xanda; 2015-11-21 at 02:06 AM.
    "Man knows - he knows that nothing will begin unless he speaks. And nothing will change, unless he knows."


  6. #26
    First, bear in mind that this is a dump, HamletEJ is tweeting that lots of things are in there that aren't staying, that some things look weird, etc.

    Alright, this is what I'm seeing for Enhance.

    All out of combat rezzes are now mass rez.
    Bloodlust debuff now has no expiry, possibly meaning that it only resets on death or encounter conclusion.
    Totem placement range appears to be 35 yards.
    Hex's cooldown reduced to 30s.
    Enhance's Lignting Bolt consumes 0-? Maelstrom, and does damage based on MP spent.
    Healing Surge currently has a 2s cast time, spends up to ? Maelstrom (20 from tweets), and heals for up to a fairly large amount(412.5% of Spell power)
    Reincarnation is now 50% Health and mana.
    Purge doesn't have a cost at present.

    Possible removed skills:
    Shocks have no tooltips for Enhancement. Some mention of FlS in the Fire Nova tooltip.
    Ancestral Spirit doesn't have a tooltip for Enhancement, and now has a Restoration flag.
    Cleanse Spirit doesn't have a tooltip for Enhancement.
    Chain Ligntning doesn't have a tooltip for Enhancement.
    Healing Rain doesn't have a tooltip for Enhancement.
    Healing Stream Totem doesn't have a tooltip for Enhancement.

    Probably talents:
    Earthen Spike: Summon an Earthen Spike, instantly dealing 775% Physical damage to your enemy and increasing the Physical and Nature damage the target takes by 10% for 10 sec. 20s cooldown.
    Lightning Surge Totem: Summons an Air totem with 5 health at the target that gathers electrical energy from the surrounding air and then explodes after 5 sec to stun all enemies within 8 yards for 5 sec. 45s cooldown. (New name for Cap totem)
    Gust of Wind: A gust of wind hurls you forward.
    Wind Rush Totem: Summons an Air Totem with (2 * Total health / 100) health at the target location for 15 sec, continually granting all allies who pass within 10 yards 60% increased movement speed for 5 sec.
    Ancestral Swiftness: Increases haste by 10% and attack speed by 10% at all times.
    Spiritual Affinity: Reduces the cooldown of Feral Spirits by 60 secs.
    Lightning Shield: Surround yourself with a shield of lighting for 15 sec which deals 1 damage to a random enemy within 0 to 10 yards. 1m cooldown.
    Tempest: When Stormfury is activated, you now gain 2 Stormstrikes which are cost 50% Maelstrom and trigger no cooldown.
    Crashing Storm: Increases the range of Crash Lightning by 4 yards.
    Stormlash: Whenever you attack with your weapons enhanced, you have a chance to enhance up to 2 allies or yourself, causing attacks and spellcasts to deal additional Nature damage. (Note: Unsure if this is a talent or a spec ability.)
    Feral Lunge: Lunge at your enemy, striking them and dealing 450% Physical damage with your main-hand and 450% Physical damage with your off-hand.Only usable within Ghost Wolf. (Charge?)
    Voodoo Totem: Summons a Voodoo Totem with (2 * Total health / 100) health at the target destination for 10 sec. The totem pulses every 5 sec, hexing all enemies within 0 yards for 0. Enemies can only be Hexed once.Replaces Hex.
    Stonefist Strike: Attack your enemy causing 100% Physical damage and stunning them for 5 sec. Deals double damage to targets permanently immune to stuns.
    Fury of Air: Create a vortex of wind 8 yards around you dealing 160% damage every 1 sec for 10 sec to enemies caught in the storm, and slowing them by 30% for 3 sec. 30s Cooldown.
    Sundering: Shatter a line of earth before you, causing (30% of Spell power) Physical damage and knocking enemies to the side. 20s Cooldown. (No mention of Maelstrom cost)
    Landslide: Rockbiter now also enhances your weapon, increasing your Attack Power by 20%.
    Fists of Stone: Draw on the power of the ground beneath you, encasing your weapons in stone, increasing Critical Strike chance by 10% and all Damage dealt by 5% for 10 sec, but reducing your Attack Speed by 50% and movement speed by 50%. 30s Cooldown.
    Windsong: Attack your enemy for (152.5% of Spell power) Nature damage, and enhance your weapons with wind, increasing your attack speed by 50% for 15 sec. 30s Cooldown.
    Spiritual Resonance: Increases the Maelstrom generation provided by Rockbiter and Feral Spirits by 10.
    Feral Kin: Summons a Spirit Wolf to fight for you, under your command, lasting 30 sec. While the Spirits are active, your Haste is increased by 50% and you generate an extra 5 Maelstrom per second for 30 sec. Replaces Feral Spirit. 5m cooldown. (This cooldown seems odd.)


    Some things look noticibly wrong:
    Echo of the Elements is all fubar. Refers to spells that no longer have cooldowns as having charges.
    Unleash Elements is all fubar. Referred to, but no tooltip for it.
    Ascendance is all furbar. Until canceled with a 10m cooldown. Something seriously wrong here.
    Fire Nova is all fubar. Refers to Flame Shock and the Enhancement tag is gone from the tooltip.
    Flurry is all fubar. Reduces cooldown of things with no cooldown.
    Magma Totem retains it's mana cost.
    Last edited by Mantioch; 2015-11-21 at 03:12 AM.

  7. #27
    Legion Overview Doc on the front page has been updated, will link it here as well for anyone.

  8. #28
    NOT listed in the dump but tweeted out by MMO-C: Whenever you or allies within 15 yd of the totem deal damage, the same damage will be dealt to a random enemy within range. Lasts 15 sec.
    Which totem is that referring to?

  9. #29
    Quote Originally Posted by nazrakin View Post
    Which totem is that referring to?
    It's not currently known, it was just tweeted out via MMO-C early on in the dump. Could be completely irrelevant but it was so significant in terms of what it could do that I thought it was worth listing.

  10. #30
    Feral Spirit now only last for 15 seconds, but also provide 50% haste while active and causing us to generate 5 maelstrom per second for 30 seconds.
    I believe it'd be more like 15 second duration for the buff, if it's active as long as the wolves? Anyway...combined with the Windsong talent, we'll have 100% attack speed for 15s every 30s :O?

    And very excited about that (totem) that duplicates damage to a random enemy target within range. Sounds like a VERY powerful raid cooldown and very powerful in arena as well. Reminds me of that mind control totem suggestion I've been putting up often.
    Last edited by Omanley1; 2015-11-22 at 09:04 AM.

  11. #31
    Quote Originally Posted by Omanley1 View Post
    Feral Spirit now only last for 15 seconds, but also provide 50% haste while active and causing us to generate 5 maelstrom per second for 30 seconds.
    I believe it'd be more like 15 second duration for the buff, if it's active as long as the wolves? Anyway...combined with the Windsong talent, we'll have 100% attack speed for 15s every 30s :O?
    It very specifically states the haste is tied to the wolves being active whilst the Maelstrom comes from a separate, 30sec duration buff in the tooltip. Accurate or not unknown.

  12. #32
    Those artifact talents look pretty sick. Spirit Fusion turns you into a feral spirit, and allows your feral spirits to proc wind fury? Yes please!

  13. #33
    Updated the front page with a VoD of the talents look I streamed earlier today

  14. #34
    Purge is gonna have fun trying to set up a priority for Fists of Stone. It seems like it's going to be used as a build and burst thing, but it's so painfully restrictive, and the 50% attack speed thing will, indeed, retard MP generation. 10s is pretty long. Not to mention the mobility hit. I like the concept of a talented rotational burst talent, but it seems to me that MP will be quite spiky. We'll see. It seems to me that Enh will be more thoughtful with more MP, but there's a chance that you'd lose the buzzsaw feeling. As with everything else, we need to see how it looks on Beta.

  15. #35
    Who's the simc developer responsible for Shaman anyway? They're gonna have their hands full with a resource conversion and complete rework.

  16. #36
    I dont think the 10minute CD is all that bad if its going to have 1 minute duration. Right now its 15 seconds with 3minute CD. So this version is pretty much front loading 4x the duration in a single (likely fully lusted) window. Getting 4 uses out of the current one is pretty rare, you only get marathons like that from a final tier boss. Its also more flexible since knowing that you'll only get one use means you can sit on it for awkward/late burn phases without sacrificing anything.

    Of course the comparison that matters will be with Earthen Spike and Feral Kin, but i can get behind a 10min CD if its done right.

  17. #37
    Last I heard, Purge was our main simcraft guy.

    I prefer a shorter and more flexible Ascendance, given the option. I don't care for bosses bursted down to 60% in 1 minute, then spending 5 more minutes on the rest of it. I like the flexibility of being able to Ascend and burst a top priority, medium health add in phase 2 of an encounter, and have it available again for the final push. The longer cooldowns are, the more static and planned their use is. If there's a 6 minute fight, presently, I know within a few seconds when all my cooldowns should be used, and after a few pulls, there's little to no thought behind their use. Cooldowns should feel meaningful, not just because they increase damage, but because they allow strategic play. In a world with more than a few excessively long cooldowns, which I'd say is longer than three minutes or so, all the DPS are letting loose simultaneously to make best use of windows to pad. Iskar, though a fairly easy fight, is a great example of this. Everyone lets loose during the add phases, even those specs who's AoE is relatively poor. Encouraging this kind of thing seems ... icky.

    I like the idea of specs having things they're good at, so long as their single target over the course of a fight like Patchwerk or Fel Lord Zakuun is similar. Cleave vs AoE. Burst vs Sustained. Passive vs Reactive. Frenetic vs Measured. This leaves properly balanced specs room to shine on encounters that favor them, and also encourages those who're interested in a different playstyle to find their 'fit'. If they end up balancing the talents within a row well, that'll allow for even more spec customization within a row. They'll need to be within a few percent to accomplish that, of course, because if they're too close, the more mechanically difficult options will fall by the wayside. It's a tightrope, and Blizzard has seldom accomplished it within a single talent row, let alone all DPS specs simultaneously. (Personally, one of the reasons I think this is is that they tend to balance around relatively round numbers, 5%, 10%, and so on.) Something mechanically more difficult to accomplish should reward slightly more, something easier to accomplish requires less skill, but is generally more sustainable. Some inherent problems will remain, such as the fact that Burst is generally better than Sustained as a tier wears on, especially in regards to AoE and Cleave. If it gets bursted down in a couple of GCDs, Necrotic Plague just can't compete with Cataclysm or Bladestorm, as an example. Fire Nova was a good middle ground, IMO.
    Last edited by Mantioch; 2015-11-24 at 09:32 AM.

  18. #38
    Quote Originally Posted by nazrakin View Post
    I dont think the 10minute CD is all that bad if its going to have 1 minute duration. Right now its 15 seconds with 3minute CD. So this version is pretty much front loading 4x the duration in a single (likely fully lusted) window. Getting 4 uses out of the current one is pretty rare, you only get marathons like that from a final tier boss. Its also more flexible since knowing that you'll only get one use means you can sit on it for awkward/late burn phases without sacrificing anything.

    Of course the comparison that matters will be with Earthen Spike and Feral Kin, but i can get behind a 10min CD if its done right.
    You're not a PvP player, are you? 10 minutes CD means not usable in rated pvp. But it's a placeholder anyways. In no way will such a buff have such a high cooldown. It's not 2005 anymore

  19. #39
    Quote Originally Posted by Mantioch View Post
    Last I heard, Purge was our main simcraft guy.

    I prefer a shorter and more flexible Ascendance, given the option. I don't care for bosses bursted down to 60% in 1 minute, then spending 5 more minutes on the rest of it. I like the flexibility of being able to Ascend and burst a top priority, medium health add in phase 2 of an encounter, and have it available again for the final push. The longer cooldowns are, the more static and planned their use is. If there's a 6 minute fight, presently, I know within a few seconds when all my cooldowns should be used, and after a few pulls, there's little to no thought behind their use. Cooldowns should feel meaningful, not just because they increase damage, but because they allow strategic play. In a world with more than a few excessively long cooldowns, which I'd say is longer than three minutes or so, all the DPS are letting loose simultaneously to make best use of windows to pad. Iskar, though a fairly easy fight, is a great example of this. Everyone lets loose during the add phases, even those specs who's AoE is relatively poor. Encouraging this kind of thing seems ... icky.
    Im looking at this purely from an objective point of view, for all the reasons I mentioned in the last post there isnt anything inherently wrong with having a 10 min CD that you likely get one use out of per encounter. Whether I have one cd or ten, Im going to use them all in the most strategic manner possible. People who are using their cooldowns purely to pad meters is a social issue, not one that game balance needs to be concerned with.

    Personally, I think that the talent system is at its brightest when youve got 3 objectivity equal talents that allow a player the freedom to shape the gameplay to his preference. Maybe I want one really powerful cooldown that Ill use once a fight, if you want something significantly shorter then youll have feral kin, and for someone that wants something more consistent that fits into the rotation there is should be Earthen Spike. I think thats a good balance to have in that tier and much more interesting than if Ascendance is a 2-3 minute cooldown.


    Quote Originally Posted by shapookya View Post
    You're not a PvP player, are you? 10 minutes CD means not usable in rated pvp. But it's a placeholder anyways. In no way will such a buff have such a high cooldown. It's not 2005 anymore
    Youre right about one thing... Its not 2005 anymore. What that actually means is that Blizzard isnt still holding on to the illusion of being able to balance pve and pvp with the exact same toolbox. So if they need to modify the talent to be more conducive to pvp while keeping it exactly as it is in pve, they can easily do that.

  20. #40
    Brewmaster Mystrome's Avatar
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    One thing I've not seen anyone mention yet, with the way MS is going to be generated, is weaponspeed. I know that we'll have our artifact for Legion, so a non-issue during that, but we'll have a few weeks (maybe even 2 months) of pre-launch gameplay with our overhaul.

    Would it be possible that we're going to have a fast weapon in our MH and a slow weapon in our OH to generate more MS? Or even fast weapons in both hands? And if fast weapons become viable, what would that mean for us pre- or post-Legion?

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