Legion - Assassination Discussion

[Elyzibeth]

http://us.battle.net/wow/en/characte...ealfate/simple

I had mantle and sephuz and now I just got fok back. Any tips on it's usage? Do I introduce fok into my st rotation? A fellow rogue in the raid I was in said mantle and back are a good combo for mythic +. Can anyone elaborate?

Side question: a non raiding rogue in my guild was saying 35% crit is all you need and any more is waste and to get mastery after 35%. Is this true?

Are you looking for reasons why the cloak+mantle are great in mythic plus? If you are it's simple. You want to stealth between packs. if you do that, when you FOK from stealth, you'll have some stacks built up from the cloak, and they will ALL crit, and it will most likely give you 5 CP's, so you can immediately rupture. You can repeat that 3 times before your buff is gone. The guaranteed crits with the buff to your FOK's are crazy good dps.

If you're wearing the shoulder you're stat priority is mostly likely Agility > mastery > vers > crit > haste (don't believe me, sim it) The shoulders devalue your crit raiting a fair amount because of the burst they provide. The burst since you're crit is guaranteed does significantly better with more mastery, and more vers as it allows you to push out more damage in those crit buff windows. Currently I run 22% crit. If you're at 35%, most likely your mastery is suffering or you're giving up dps that comes from vers.

- - - Updated - - -

Clicked your armory link. a few things if you want to majorly boost your dps:

-get the tier 4 piece, I know, easier said than done sometimes, but 4 piece is a big dps boost.
-replace that darguls as soon as you can for something that gives you a ton of agility, or an agility/mastery stat stick
-are the talents showing up on your character screen right now what you run? (MP almost 100% for sure, and subterfuge most likely will both net you a dps gain)
-Have you changed your opener for use with the shoulders? Below is what a lot of us are using now, and it works VERY well.

This opener is for speccing into Subterfuge.

garrote > mut > rupture > mut > vendetta > envenom > kingsbane > mut > envenom > mut > mut (now pool until KB dot is ~6 seconds remaining) > vanish

Select what to do next bases on if your mut > mut was:

4 CP's from mut > mut:
garrote > envenom > mut > DOS or continue with envenom > muts until crit buff ends

5 CP's from mut > mut:
envenom > garrote >mut > DOS or continue with envenom > muts until crit buff ends

https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports...-done&source=8

This opener will pull you into the 2-3 million dps range easy on opening pulls.

- - - Updated - - -

Looked at some of your logs, your openers on some of the parses are a hot mess. Remember, you have the shoulders, in the crit window your mutilates will give you 4 combo points, so you never want to mutilate back to back in the crit window as you'll waste a tone of combo points. I would recommend subterfuge for you, it will simply your opener in my opinion. Also, mid fight vanish, line that stuff up, you want to get the most out of it as possible. If you are going to use nightstalker, remember to vanish with your 5 CP's and a full energy bar if you don't have a vendetta ready. You want to vanish > rupture > garrote > KB > envenom. Or even better, if you're subterfuge KB before your vanish is up, keep and at about ~6 till KB dot is going to end, vanishe > envenom > mut > garrote > envenom > mut > envenom. The reason for the early KB is that when you vanish, you're buffing that last 6 seconds of the dot ticks with your shoulder buff, which can account for huge ticks of damage.

Also in your logs, it does look like you're running the pre 7.1.5 talents, If you're stacking mastery, and not using master poisoner that directly benefits from mastery, you're really hurting yourself.

[Master Guns]

Thank you for all that info, gonna read it more thoroughly when I'm off work

[jhonwei]

AMR also thinks Frond is just wonderful whereas anyone whos raided with it for progression will tell you its a piece of shit.

But it can RNG up some crazy numbers and phase well so there you go, simulations wet dream.

Thats why I take sims with a grain of salt and test things in game with logs giving the best indication if you are heading in the right direction.

Also feelscraft. I've gotten a PHD in feelscraftings specializing in broscience and "something feels different". Actually wrote my thesis on burning temple raid gear and if dodge is being undervalued and +hit overvalued. Really was eye opening stuff into the raid community.

You didnt mention what other legends you have. Kil'jad is like 4-5th best legend for assassin rogue

Wrong, if you check, ALMOST every mythic rogue is using Frond + CoF . Frond is a really good trinket for us ( Guldan trinket was 'ok' with shoulder being 9s but now its not that good) what ppl think and everyone always need to answer on Discord is that FROND IS NOT OVERSIMMING and it really dont need to do 4% of our damage to be our best trinket (2%-3% and its already a very powerfull trinket), so no, frond is not a piece of shit, quite the opposite.

[RobertoCarlos]

Wrong, if you check, ALMOST every mythic rogue is using Frond + CoF . Frond is a really good trinket for us ( Guldan trinket was 'ok' with shoulder being 9s but now its not that good) what ppl think and everyone always need to answer on Discord is that FROND IS NOT OVERSIMMING and it really dont need to do 4% of our damage to be our best trinket (2%-3% and its already a very powerfull trinket), so no, frond is not a piece of shit, quite the opposite.

Oh so the few rogues that have killed mythic Botanist? Or gotten lucky through mythic follower mission?

Most trinkets are good 900+

[jhonwei]

If you dont raid mythic or heroic (890 and can wt/tf to 900+) your other trinkets probably are 900- too.
But if you are comparing trinket that have different ILVLs better to use simc to see if its a upgrade.
Thats not relevant to the point that frond is one of our best trinkets

[elfporn]

Wrong, if you check, ALMOST every mythic rogue is using Frond + CoF . Frond is a really good trinket for us ( Guldan trinket was 'ok' with shoulder being 9s but now its not that good) what ppl think and everyone always need to answer on Discord is that FROND IS NOT OVERSIMMING and it really dont need to do 4% of our damage to be our best trinket (2%-3% and its already a very powerfull trinket), so no, frond is not a piece of shit, quite the opposite.

So you're saying that when frond does between 2 and 5mil damage on average, over an entire NH clear, that it's a very powerful trinket.

I call bullshit. It's a terrible trinket, the worst one in NH except when you're very very lucky.

[jhonwei]

So you're saying that when frond does between 2 and 5mil damage on average, over an entire NH clear, that it's a very powerful trinket.

I call bullshit. It's a terrible trinket, the worst one in NH except when you're very very lucky.

Rogue discord call that feelycraft, you cant say a trinket is bad which such low amount of data. that’s why simc use 10k-100k interactions.
Its a RNG trinket? yes it is, but on average (not 1 NH clear -.-") it does more DPS than most trinkets.

[jhonwei]

So you're saying that when frond does between 2 and 5mil damage on average, over an entire NH clear, that it's a very powerful trinket.

I call bullshit. It's a terrible trinket, the worst one in NH except when you're very very lucky.

Rogue discord call that feelycraft, you cant say a trinket is bad which such low amount of data. that’s why simc use 10k-100k interactions.
Its a RNG trinket? yes it is, but on average (not 1 NH clear -.-") it does more DPS than most trinkets.

here is a picture of 21 pulls before my mythic augur kill (still not enough data!!) - imgur.com/a/VofFQ
AVG 3.02% of my damage in 21 pulls. I have more data (elisande mythic 29 tries last night it did 2.34% and some mythic kills doing 2%-4%).

[elfporn]

Rogue discord call that feelycraft, you cant say a trinket is bad which such low amount of data. that’s why simc use 10k-100k interactions.
Its a RNG trinket? yes it is, but on average (not 1 NH clear -.-") it does more DPS than most trinkets.

here is a picture of 21 pulls before my mythic augur kill (still not enough data!!) - imgur.com/a/VofFQ
AVG 3.02% of my damage in 21 pulls. I have more data (elisande mythic 29 tries last night it did 2.34% and some mythic kills doing 2%-4%).

you're missing the entire point.

"feelscraft" aside, it sims well because it does well in sims.

in real life, it's inconsistent af, making it a ridiculously terrible trinket.

[iky43210]

Are you looking for reasons why the cloak+mantle are great in mythic plus? If you are it's simple. You want to stealth between packs. if you do that, when you FOK from stealth, you'll have some stacks built up from the cloak, and they will ALL crit, and it will most likely give you 5 CP's, so you can immediately rupture. You can repeat that 3 times before your buff is gone. The guaranteed crits with the buff to your FOK's are crazy good dps.

If you're wearing the shoulder you're stat priority is mostly likely Agility > mastery > vers > crit > haste (don't believe me, sim it) The shoulders devalue your crit raiting a fair amount because of the burst they provide. The burst since you're crit is guaranteed does significantly better with more mastery, and more vers as it allows you to push out more damage in those crit buff windows. Currently I run 22% crit. If you're at 35%, most likely your mastery is suffering or you're giving up dps that comes from vers.

- - - Updated - - -

Clicked your armory link. a few things if you want to majorly boost your dps:

-get the tier 4 piece, I know, easier said than done sometimes, but 4 piece is a big dps boost.
-replace that darguls as soon as you can for something that gives you a ton of agility, or an agility/mastery stat stick
-are the talents showing up on your character screen right now what you run? (MP almost 100% for sure, and subterfuge most likely will both net you a dps gain)
-Have you changed your opener for use with the shoulders? Below is what a lot of us are using now, and it works VERY well.

This opener is for speccing into Subterfuge.

garrote > mut > rupture > mut > vendetta > envenom > kingsbane > mut > envenom > mut > mut (now pool until KB dot is ~6 seconds remaining) > vanish

Select what to do next bases on if your mut > mut was:

4 CP's from mut > mut:
garrote > envenom > mut > DOS or continue with envenom > muts until crit buff ends

5 CP's from mut > mut:
envenom > garrote >mut > DOS or continue with envenom > muts until crit buff ends

https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports...-done&source=8

This opener will pull you into the 2-3 million dps range easy on opening pulls.

- - - Updated - - -

Looked at some of your logs, your openers on some of the parses are a hot mess. Remember, you have the shoulders, in the crit window your mutilates will give you 4 combo points, so you never want to mutilate back to back in the crit window as you'll waste a tone of combo points. I would recommend subterfuge for you, it will simply your opener in my opinion. Also, mid fight vanish, line that stuff up, you want to get the most out of it as possible. If you are going to use nightstalker, remember to vanish with your 5 CP's and a full energy bar if you don't have a vendetta ready. You want to vanish > rupture > garrote > KB > envenom. Or even better, if you're subterfuge KB before your vanish is up, keep and at about ~6 till KB dot is going to end, vanishe > envenom > mut > garrote > envenom > mut > envenom. The reason for the early KB is that when you vanish, you're buffing that last 6 seconds of the dot ticks with your shoulder buff, which can account for huge ticks of damage.

Also in your logs, it does look like you're running the pre 7.1.5 talents, If you're stacking mastery, and not using master poisoner that directly benefits from mastery, you're really hurting yourself.

Just got shoulder today and this is exactly what I needed, ty.

[Deleted]

in real life, it's inconsistent af, making it a ridiculously terrible trinket.

And why is it bad again? Are you would prefer doing extra 1% on that one specific pull and not ±2% here and there BUT higher average damage — this is important for you why exactly?

What i personally don't get is why my 890 frond sims higher than 910 stat stick with agility and mastery. Like, really? What about CoF? It sims higher than foking everything except for DoS. AMR sims 880 DoS over most 900 trinkets. Even Without sholders.

p.s. dos+cof with mantle feels like best combo for raiding. Stat sticks are fine for low M+. CoF+Frond for high M+ / switch to raid setup on bosses.

[Verdugo]

And why is it bad again?

He just said it, its inconsistent as fuck.

[Deleted]

X

And why is it bad again? Are you would prefer doing extra 1% on that one specific pull and not ±2% here and there BUT higher average damage — this is important for you why exactly?

What i personally don't get is why my 890 frond sims higher than 910 stat stick with agility and mastery. Like, really? What about CoF? It sims higher than foking everything except for DoS. AMR sims 880 DoS over most 900 trinkets. Even Without sholders.

p.s. dos+cof with mantle feels like best combo for raiding. Stat sticks are fine for low M+. CoF+Frond for high M+ / switch to raid setup on bosses.

Think its al the math and abstract theory's who make it hard for you to see what they mean. Il make a try explain,

Imagine you got a car, it's fantastic on paper cause it's avrage speed is wery high and it get you on paper where you want realy fast. Problem is that sometimes it get you to your destination in no time, but sometimes it just stop halfway and you have to walk last km, or other times it don't even start.

Then your also got this ugly ass Volvo from 1985 who go realy slow and smell shit, but it ALWAS start, it never stop and get you where you want, not wery fast but you get there.

Now you wife is in labour and you need to go to the hospital, witch car do you take and why is it bad to take the other?

[Deleted]

It's a very colourful analogy but to put it into context:
Consistent stat stick with 1200 mastery: 2% dps
Inconsistent Frond: 1-7% dps

Still think your analogy makes sense?

[ymirsson]

It's a very colourful analogy but to put it into context:
Consistent stat stick with 1200 mastery: 2% dps
Inconsistent Frond: 1-7% dps

Still think your analogy makes sense?

Since progression is measured in kills, not boss percentage at wipe (at least not externally), yes, the analogy makes sense.

[Tay098]

Personally I am not a fan of Frond due to the inconsistency. You have to make you own choice on priority. If you are doing progression and are using Frond and get unlucky and your raid just barely misses the kill, the more consistent option could have made a difference. That seems to be the argument a lot of people are making. However, if you equip stat stick and THEN just barely miss the boss kill, the argument can be made that if you had used Frond and gotten lucky, it could have been a kill.

It still comes down to it siming a higher AVERAGE. I think people are more aware when the trinket under performs, but according to sims it should perform higher AND lower than other trinkets, but perform higher more often than lower.

[WoWnoob]

Today i got a 900 Splinters of Agronax, what do you guys think?

Should i replace CoF 875 or Urn 875?

[elfporn]

Personally I am not a fan of Frond due to the inconsistency. You have to make you own choice on priority. If you are doing progression and are using Frond and get unlucky and your raid just barely misses the kill, the more consistent option could have made a difference. That seems to be the argument a lot of people are making. However, if you equip stat stick and THEN just barely miss the boss kill, the argument can be made that if you had used Frond and gotten lucky, it could have been a kill.

It still comes down to it siming a higher AVERAGE. I think people are more aware when the trinket under performs, but according to sims it should perform higher AND lower than other trinkets, but perform higher more often than lower.

As far as i've been able to tell, nbf performing better in sims is down to the sims making nbf's ppm more consistent than it really is. If the damn thing procced within it's ppm like it's purported to, then i should get more than 1 proc in 10 minutes, no matter what. But that's not the case, and it's proc chance is indeed that stupid.

[Elyzibeth]

Every time I've said "you know what, I'm going to give that NBF a chance again" I've been let down. The few times that I've slapped it on and ran it for a full raid or two, I've gone back to my logs and checked its percentage of my damage for every fight and averaged them. I've never had it be over 2.8%. Most of the time it's hovering around 1.8-2.0%. Sims say that 4.2% is what it should do, and it rarely lives up to that. The last time I gave it a quick go again I used it on 8 fights. It had an 8%, 3.8%, and the rest were 2.5% or less. It's just so F'n inconsistent, my class is already RNG dependent, I don't need another one that fluctuates wildly.

[Nospmas]

Inconsistent you say https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports...false%24225739 . That feel when RNG says "No!"