France demands EU invoke mutual-defense clause

[Deleted]

As long as it includes Russians and Iranians perhaps.

But what's the point of it? Suppose they see some kind of fraud, widespread or not... what's next? Repeat until there are none? Accept results anyway? Various irregularities happen even in EU states.

various irregularities are a far difference from widely corrupt there is this thing called a spectrum

[Shalcker]

various irregularities are a far difference from widely corrupt there is this thing called a spectrum

That still doesn't answer the question. Suppose they see election officials literally stuffing pre-marked voting ballots by piles into voting booths. What's next? So, they call it a fraud, ...a-a-a-and?

And who is going to "oppose" Assad in those elections anyway?

[Deleted]

That still doesn't answer the question. Suppose they see election officials literally stuffing pre-marked voting ballots by piles into voting booths. What's next? So, they call it a fraud, ...a-a-a-and?

And who is going to "oppose" Assad in those elections anyway?

it gets handled on a case to case basis arguing fantasy is a waste of time

[Kourvith]

France is actually delivering coordinated strikes with Russia against Raqqa for a second day in a row. Poutine expressed his will to be an ally, while Hollande is currently working with the US to create a "ultimate, absolute alliance".

Russia is also asking to join its naval force with the french nuclear propelled aircraft carrier Charles de Gaulle (currently on its way). ISIS is gonna be the target of the first time in history where 90% of the world superpowers unite against terror.

[Deleted]

Also funny that you should mention Belgium, the home of the mastermind of the attacks.

What's even more funny is how wrong the news is. Out of the 10 terrorists this year:

They almost all lived in France, or were French. Not to mention, their security services had them labeled as dangerous.

Yet they decided not to monitor them. Molenbeek is a problem, but France is equally as bad when it comes to prevention.

Either way the capital will be Germany soon if only 1% is IS alligned, that's 5000 terrorists we are talking about.

[Deleted]

Scary stuff, however I feel it must be necessary here to act as one in the face of these people. To let them divide us is to let them win.

The question is if war is the answer - because ISIS could use that as propaganda to tell all Muslims that "the west" just want to get rid of Muslims... Which isn't what we are trying to, but I bet they control the media (ISIS) in many country's in the region, and that can create more problems..

[satimy]

This is what Isis wants, ground troops in the middle east. If the west takes the bait then they need to be prepared to use the largest amount of force the world has ever seen and get the job done quickly. Although with the amount of sleeper cells in the eu already, it probably won't stop another massacre

[Archonite]

Last thing i heard my country ran out of bullets, im not sure France gains much from demanding help from the Netherlands.

Jokes aside, as much as im opposed to western military involvement in the middle east, i would prefer a unified strategy involving all of europe together with the rest of the world, instead of just some half-assed airstrikes that only feed the conflict.

[Slant]

What's this mean exactly, do other EU countries have to lend military aide? Is it symbolic?

Why not NATO?

paris-attacks-islamic-state-hollande/75913054/

France became the first European Union country to request the 28-nation political bloc's mutual-defense clause be invoked to secure it in the wake of the Paris attacks that killed at least 129 people.

Jean-Yves Le Drian, France's defense minister, made the demand in Brussels on Tuesday.

He said that other EU member nations should help the security situation by "either by taking part in France's operations in Syria or Iraq, or by easing the load or providing support for France in other operations."

The clause — article 42.7 of the Treaty on European Union — says that "if a member state is the victim of armed aggression on its territory, the other member states shall have toward it an obligation of aid and assistance by all the means in their power."

The article has never before been used. The demand received unanimous support.

I'm guessing there are a couple of things that may be relevant. First, the USA is largely responsible for the larger conflict with muslim extremists in that they keep on fueling their propaganda machine everytime they basically do stuff, whatever it is at the time, in the middle east. Bringing in the US will taint this effort of defense. Second, I'm not exactly 100% sure, but I think the requirements for NATO defense clause to bite are much higher than the EU defense clause.

And since this is not even close to the scale of 9/11, it's really hard to just ignore that and base the invocation of the defense clause on the sheer size of the attack.

Also, by using the EU, this is open to solutions without US influence/interference.

[Independent voter]

I'm guessing there are a couple of things that may be relevant. First, the USA is largely responsible for the larger conflict with muslim extremists in that they keep on fueling their propaganda machine everytime they basically do stuff, whatever it is at the time, in the middle east.

You don't think the extremists want to revive the Caliphate? Anger only gets you so far but an ideology can get you to the moon.

[ParanoiD84]

This is what Isis wants, ground troops in the middle east. If the west takes the bait then they need to be prepared to use the largest amount of force the world has ever seen and get the job done quickly. Although with the amount of sleeper cells in the eu already, it probably won't stop another massacre

They are in for a surprise then after facing sucky competition on the ground with the Iraqi army, bet they think they will run away as soon they appear to like the Iraqis. And let's not exaggerate lol the biggest ground force the world has ever seen?

Daesh has no chance in open war and they know it, that's why they rely on their cowardly tactics like hiding amongst the people, spreading fear with mass killing innocent people, using ied's and suicide bombers. They have no naval power and no air support. They can only last for so long if eu/us decides to deploy ground troops.

[Acidbaron]

Reason why Putin has changed his opinion, the russian plane that blew up is now confirmed to be a target by IS and he's out for vengeance.

So those airstrikes that used to be spread over targets from Assad and IS are now going to get a collective focus on IS.

[Deleted]

If the west takes the bait then they need to be prepared to use the largest amount of force the world has ever seen

That would require way more than 4 million pairs of boots on the ground, considering the Germans used around 4 million to invade the SU in 1941.

[Shalcker]

Reason why Putin has changed his opinion, the russian plane that blew up is now confirmed to be a target by IS and he's out for vengeance.
So those airstrikes that used to be spread over targets from Assad and IS are now going to get a collective focus on IS.

No.

There aren't going to be eradication of ISIS without Assad retaking his country step-by-step. Air power even in overwhelming amounts cannot decide everything.

[bufferunderrun]

What's this mean exactly, do other EU countries have to lend military aide? Is it symbolic?

Why not NATO?

It is basically similar to nato but it don't have any territorial limitation, for example NATO couldn't intervene in Falkland war due to the island geographical position on the other hand if something like that happen today due to UK being part of the EU by extension Falkland Islands are considered EU territory and thus argentina would face the entire european union.
In this case they don't invoked NATO probably because Russia is involved.

[Grimbold21]

When France says EU i think they mean Germany.

[Tyrianth]

Article V isn't a magic spell, it is a vote of the members. I don't believe you could count on the U.S. vote right now. Frankly, I don't think that push comes to shove that we would honor our per se treaty obligations to protect South Korea, Japan, or the Phillipines.

Article V doesn't require a vote and as it stands, the only country to invoke Article V is the US.

What Article V doesn't provide is a guarantee for military backing. Only that each nation state will take "such action as it deems necessary, including the use of armed force, to restore and maintain the security of the North Atlantic area."

That could be anything from full out war to sanctions.

If France invoked Article V, the US would be obligated to do something. If they didn't then NATO would fall apart, because why have a defence treaty if it's members won't come to each others defence.

[Deleted]

Thank God they didnt call for NATO - that would be a total mistake. US probably talked them out of it.

[Deleted]

France is actually delivering coordinated strikes with Russia against Raqqa for a second day in a row. Poutine expressed his will to be an ally, while Hollande is currently working with the US to create a "ultimate, absolute alliance".

Russia is also asking to join its naval force with the french nuclear propelled aircraft carrier Charles de Gaulle (currently on its way). ISIS is gonna be the target of the first time in history where 90% of the world superpowers unite against terror.

Unite and do what? I mean seriously what do they hope to accomplish other then maybe destroying military assets and manpower in the region for a few years until the next generation of kids whos family have been blown up by the west grow up to resent us? You can bet your ass 5-10 years from now when things have settled down one country or another will start supplying this group or that with military supplies again to fight another group anyways and then it starts all over again.

Why don't they just create a DMZ on the border with Turkey (guess Turkey don't like that though) and a naval patrol/blockade in the Mediterranean to make it much harder for people to move to the EU without going through russia/africa. Set up some military run refugee camps on our side of the DMZ where refugees have to stay x months until they are vetted before being allowed further into the EU. Divide the cost among all EU nations. Then they can still play their oil war games in the region but reduce the fallout to europe.

[Kourvith]

Unite and do what? I mean seriously what do they hope to accomplish other then maybe destroying military assets and manpower in the region for a few years until the next generation of kids whos family have been blown up by the west grow up to resent us?

While you have a point, there's another story to read between the lines : uniting also means better relationships within parties for a while. Considering the tensions between RU and US in the last weeks, I find it to be quite useful.