Finally got Illidan in Heroes...

[Lesane]

You have a r1 and don't know that WoW tournaments did have more viewers? Really? Yes, they had more and to put it into perspective, that was 5 years ago before twitch even existed. It was stupidly huge back then.

How many viewers does hots have now when it can't be excused as 'it's still in beta' or 'it just launched' anymore and is supposed to be gaining momentum? I checked a bit before - 4k viewers, placing it into top28. Right behind 'Keep talking and nobody explodes'. Is that even a game?

Of course there were stupid things in arena, it was a PvE game that accidentally became an esport for a while. Shadowmourne was stupid, but there were a lot of things on the same level of stupidness that balanced it out. Bauble, 400 resi prots, double solace mages and priests, etc. On top of it it had the worst possible spectator client because blizzard didn't give a shit. There was a lot of potential, certainly a lot more than hots has. But as I said, from cata onwards blizzard didn't give a shit about it and was happy it died and went away. I'm surprised that the crap game even managed to get 50k viewers in 2015.

I got the rank 1 on the side during off hours when not raiding. I didn't consider myself someone who mainly PVPd post-vanilla. I tried watching WoW tournaments when that became a thing but it's without a doubt the most boring and messy eSport game I've ever watched. It's full with RNG shit, it's generally just boring to watch and super hard to spectate.

Yes, HotS isn't exactly hot shit viewer wise on twitch unless when there's a tournament going on or when the popular streamers are on (which are like a handful in total). They managed to get 100k viewers in the semi finals of Blizzcon which I think is pretty impressive considering how saturated the genre is and that the game is still very new. I find it hard to believe WoW tournies got 100k viewers or more, even in its prime time. How can you know the viewer numbers if it wasn't on Twitch? I know people were watching it on Blizzcon stream and such, but did that say how many people watched?

[Sir Andy]

Make it double.

OT: I think its safe to assume there will be overlap of abilities. plus quite a fair few more in WoW DH's.

To protect the world from deva...I'll stop.

OP has probably figured this out already, but it takes a delicate hand to play Illidan right.

Sidenote: just won a game as Illidan against double tank (Stitches+Muradin) and Jaina+Raynor. Much happiness.

[RH92]

Helltrixz, I think the success of WoW Arena had more to do with a massive number of players playing in WotLK.

When you think WoW had 12 million players back then, it is not that surprising it pulled off huge number of viewers as well. Sure Twitch and those other streaming sites were still young, but come on 12 million people were playing the game. I also think a lack of competition was a major factor leading to it's "success".

It is totally different now, I think there is no comparison. Well, unless you like to compare Messi and Maradona (To be honest, comparing HotS with WoW is like comparing Messi with Gretzky) or think Michael Jackson starting today would still sell the same amount of records as he did in his prime. Success is based on factors that are constantly changing so you can't really compare something which was almost 10 years ago.

However I agree PvP balance was best in WotLK, when you ignore the first one.

[RH92]

So if WoW didn't have competition, what do you call Starcraft, Warcraft, Quake 3, Unreal Tournament, Counter-Strike, Halo, etc.? As far as I see it, it had real competition and it didn't simply beat it, it smashed the floor with it.

Those games you mentioned are not MMOs, sure they have impact on number of viewers, but people usually watch one game from a certain genre. At the time, WoW had hardly any real competition. Using sports again, I don't think a lot of people watch NHL and KHL at the same time, but they might be watching NHL and NBA for example.

I am not saying it isn't an achievement in it's own right, but to me it isn't surprising at all. WoW was well established at the time with a massive following.

[Sir Andy]

What changed compared to today? It had 10 million subscribers just a year ago. Are there any other MMOs it has to compete against when it comes to PvP?

More interesting PvP elements than "The mage and rogue on each team take turns beating on the resto druid until one falls over dead after 20 minutes" came up.

[Lesane]

http://www.arenajunkies.com/topic/31...and-sirscoots/

The youtube link is interesting to listen to.

Pretty interesting, really didn't expect WoW to do that well considering how horrible the game was (which is something the guests on that vid state too). Guess the popularity of WoW carried it pretty well, that's another thing to consider. I don't think HotS has over 10 million active players atm, so naturally the viewer numbers on twitch are going to be lower as well. All it would take though is for one popular streamer to start playing the game. We'll see how well it does at the end of next year.

What changed compared to today? It had 10 million subscribers just a year ago. Are there any other MMOs it has to compete against when it comes to PvP?

I think MOBAs bring in people who like RPGs except this time it doesn't have shit combat and it's actually viewer friendly unlike all the MMOs. Anytime I play an MMO, I just don't see how people can play the PVP other than as a minigame and complimentary gameplay to the core game (PVE). I literally just ask myself, why don't I just play a MOBA if I want to PVP? Before, you had competitive FPS and RTS maybe, but those games were an entirely different beast and far harder to play.

[ttak82]

I think MOBAs bring in people who like RPGs except this time it doesn't have shit combat and it's actually viewer friendly unlike all the MMOs. Anytime I play an MMO, I just don't see how people can play the PVP other than as a minigame and complimentary gameplay to the core game (PVE). I literally just ask myself, why don't I just play a MOBA if I want to PVP? Before, you had competitive FPS and RTS maybe, but those games were an entirely different beast and far harder to play.

In the case of sub based games, such as WoW the main issue is the sub fees - because if it was for free, I think many people would shift from PvE to PvP. With some of the changes they did from MOP, PvP was a lot more accessible. There are still many issues there of course (rewards, fun, community, game systems, balance) but it is easy to log in and get into a bg/ arena match (if you have friends, ofc you go ranked). MOBAs are normally free to play. Another point is about perspective. Some people like 3rd person 3d gameplay, some like fps gameplay, some like top-down/isometric perspective.

At the all that matters is what a game offers to keep people involved/invested in it.

Little bit back on topic: I wont be surprised that if you buy Legion, you will get Illidan for free after some time (just like Diablo).

[Lesane]

Personally I don't see any similarities between mobas and mmos/rpgs. There's no rpg story and exploring the world. There's no rpg character development. There's no mmo community. Wotlk had all of it, while Hots has none of it.

How relevant is that really for people who focus on PVP? Djfrostqtxd the frost mage that got power leveled to level cap, spent zero time outside of arenas/bg's other than what was neccesary is what I think of when I think of dedicated WoW PVPers. They usually don't give a shit about the world, the story and let alone their character (that's why they always give them such retarded names). The only point you have is community I guess, that's something that is a bit lacking in MOBAs compared to MMO PVP because you need to invest way more into a certain character than you do in MOBAs.

I was one of those players that enjoyed every aspect of the game at one point, but I know I wasn't the average WoW player. Most people go balls to the walls into either PVP or PVE and completely neglect the other. Most of my teammates back in TBC when I actively PVP'd were like that, completely devoted to PVP. Once I got the rank 1 title there was no incentive for me to play PVP anymore.

People enjoyed mmo PvP because in addition to all of the mmo/rpg elements, there was a comparably huge amount of things you could do in wotlk that involved customization and skill. I could easily pinpoint someone's mmr and could often tell if he was a good player playing an alt. Playing a mage, a rogue, a warlock, a disc, etc. well, that took skill. In hots I can never really tell if someone is r1 or r20. It almost always feels like meeting beastcleave and wondering if they're 1800 mmr or 2500 mmr.

I sense major differences even between rank 1 and rank 4 players. Hell, even within rank 1 players there's huge skill gaps. The reason why you were able to spot skill differences in WoW probably had to do with the fact that you were way more invested in it than you are into HotS (or another MOBA).

[Imnick]

Demon Hunter WoW abilities are definitely based on HotS.
Their directional dash which they start with is exactly the same as Illidan's, so is the fact that they teleport upon activating metamorphosis.