[7.0] New Paladin Abilities and Talents

[Deleted]

lol, wat? wat is that 4 assumption? critique results in boring class design? critique is the result of boring/inferior class design.

one major critique 4 WoD was this inconsistency, the reliance on procs.
u just dont want inconsistency in rated or progress. in pve DP will b replaced by Crusade at 30% haste. btw hf mythic+9 without any DP-procs
also it doesnt rely primarily on "reactivity", but rngesus - a T7 dependant on rng is always russian roulette with an automatic, cuz rngesus is a fail0r.

what were trying to do is to enhance T7, Snegoviks suggestion DP 75% chance is op, 50% would be sufficient enough, but ill take the 75% without debate.

That feedback is exactly what was wrong and led us to the presently stale rotation. If you don't have procs you will be repeating the same rotation to exhaustion. That, isn't fun.
I wouldn't be opposed to a higher proc chance. Actually, i don't even understand the complaints because in foundry tier we had procs all the time.
I like procs, so you won't hear me opposing that. They are reactive btw, despite what you say. When you get them and wich finisher you use is an interesting decision. Atm JV is the best, but it won't be in legion. How to make the best of these moments has been what i loved about WoD Ret.

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It's 20% that feels pretty damn unlucky. I mean, there are plenty of abilities in plenty of toolkits that proc at or around that rate that don't feel as desperately rare. Maybe it's because it makes SUCH a difference in the ret toolkit to get that extra free finisher. By contrast, an Art of War proc was the same rate, but A) the proccing behavior was much, much more frequent (auto-attack) and B) the reward of the proc was not nearly, by orders of magnitude, as important to your output as an extra finisher.

In practice, it feels like "okay, here's the one. Nope. Okay, okay, THIS one. Nope. (boss reaches 4%) okay, judgment's up, TV, and YES (boss dies), I can... #%$!".

Being based around finishers, I'd rather see DP up around 30 or even 40%. Retune around it, if you must -- still feels more FUN to hit the spender button than to hope, desperately, for more chances to.

The above reply also took ypur post into acount. Just want to add once more that that is the wrong mind-set. The right one would be: I'm doing my usual rotation. Oh! A proc showed up! What do i do with it?

[Camaris]

i dislike being categorized when u misread t7 for t17 (which def. means talent tier 7, where DP is).
even more weird, cuz u verify all my personal and posted argument vs DP.

and ofc u r right, talent tree is design base, so it starts here. and yes, were all talking prepatch here.

My apologies for not being more explicit. I was referring to our Tier 17 (BRF) raid gear, which synergized especially well with Divine Purpose. Part of the reason it synergized well was because it gave us a total of three different procs, so the chanced of none of them firing off were minimal. That's why I was disagreeing with you that procs are pure RNG - they don't have to be, and the way that can be controlled for is either streak protection (such as Fire Mages get) or multiple procs that feed into one another.

This, as Nemmar pointed out, makes procs reactive. You have to position yourself and set up your resources so that your reaction is as effective as possible when the procs come up. The reason current Divine Purpose design feels like more "RNG" than a reactive ability is its low proc chance and the lack of interaction with our other abilities. So, I *was* disagreeing with you, I just should have been more explicit in the manner in which I was disagreeing.

What I would like to see in addition to a tweak to Divine Purpose is a return of Wrath-style Art of War, a proc on autoattack that can be used to either reset our Blade ability or throw out an instant, buffed Flash of Light. We desperately need some kind of non-cast, non-Holy Power utility heal back, and a Blade-tier reset ability would make the reduced CD from Blade of Wrath less critical in comparison to the benefits provided by Virtue's Blade and Divine Hammer.

[Deleted]

DP was 25% for alpha and a good bit of beta I believe, I don't know why they nerfed it to 20, it felt fine at 25.

[Camaris]

That's a pretty good idea, @Kangodo. The 20% lowered rate might even be warranted in that case, since we use more spenders than finishers. The only thing we'd lose is the feeling when DP chain procs, but since one of the things Blizzard probably doesn't want to ever see happening is 3x JVs into a stunned target, your system would actually protect us from that nerf bat a bit.

And the Judgment self-buff goes without saying. That or change our Mastery again. It's the part I like the least about Legion Ret.

[Stormdash]

On the subject of utility... why in the hell are GBs not usable in combat? You'd think something for which there is at least a nominal skill/attention level check, like rebuffing someone else if there has been a player killed and no brez available, would be something Blizzard would prefer for the spec. Or even juggling them in general -- GBOMs all for lust, but GBW or GBK for heavy damage periods.

[Deleted]

On the subject of utility... why in the hell are GBs not usable in combat? You'd think something for which there is at least a nominal skill/attention level check, like rebuffing someone else if there has been a player killed and no brez available, would be something Blizzard would prefer for the spec. Or even juggling them in general -- GBOMs all for lust, but GBW or GBK for heavy damage periods.

Being able to juggle the buffs around without a limit would simply be too strong on encounters like Hellfire Council, where a players gets a damage boost from the fight mechanics. At that point you could stack Retribution paladins who would all use GBoM on the buffed player, who would then absolutely destroy everything from all the blessings stacking.

It would be nice though to have a charge system in place for combat-casting greater blessings instead of just being locked out from using them, even as a QoL change.
Or just turn Greater Blessings into raid-cooldowns with short durations. Then the blessings could be counted as real utility even above 5man content.

[Stormdash]

Meh, seems like a problem for the encounter guys to work around, and not the class guys, like just hardcapping the possible damage output of whoever has that kind of buff. If their vision of the Ret fantasy involves being a bastardized version of the MMO support role, then at least let that be part of the attention/skill required part of our toolkit instead of a de facto passive (not dynamic at all while in combat) that apparently our damage is budgeted around.