[7.0] New Paladin Abilities and Talents

[Deleted]

So guys, I know this is not really relevant for gameplay but let's talk about angel wings. Always fucking angel wings on your back. I'm talking about when you pop Avenging Wrath and suddenly you look like some divine faggot in a My Little Pony movie. I hate it, I quit playing Disc partly for the same reason, I just couldn't watch those stupid angel wings anymore (Archangel).

Dude... it sounds like holy classes aren't for you.
Avenging wrath is awesome. Not the glyph though... hate the butterfly wings.

[Morally Grey Storm]

So guys, I know this is not really relevant for gameplay but let's talk about angel wings. Always fucking angel wings on your back. I'm talking about when you pop Avenging Wrath and suddenly you look like some divine faggot in a My Little Pony movie. I hate it, I quit playing Disc partly for the same reason, I just couldn't watch those stupid angel wings anymore (Archangel).

You just don't get it don't you?
These are not your everyday normal priest wings.

These wings are made out of solidifed Holy Hatred.
They bear a promise.
A promise of excruciatingly painful and painfully excruciating death caused by a lethal dose of hammer in your cranium.

They also bear a message.
A message just how much the Light hates all the wrong-doers.

[Deleted]

You keep saying this - what makes you think this is true?

With things as they are on the current alpha build, at reasonable haste levels - say, 12% - and a talent setup like this one, we're active about 95% of the time - which is not too far off from how things were in, say, Highmaul. One out of every roughly 20 GCDs will be "free" - and even those GCDs will probably end up being filled with things like Shield of Vengeance or other utility or defense spells, not to mention that since we're melee we will have some downtime in general anyway.

We should be generating enough holy power to hit Templar's Verdict every five seconds on average. That's plenty quick - in fact, quicker than the intervals we're using to playing with today (largely because we will not be spending holy power on Seraphim, which spreads TV casts out quite significantly). Similarly (and somewhat obviously) we'll be able to hit Divine Storm roughly every five seconds on average.

Now, the setup linked above is an almost purely single-target setup. The only "AoE" talent chosen is Mass Judgment, which is actually a strong single-target talent. Let's assume a full artifact, and have a look at what our Divine Storm will hit for.

Every Divine Storm does a baseline 140% of weapon damage as holy damage to each target. This is increased by 5% (multiplicatively) by our passive, for a total of 147% of weapon damage per target. Add on the 20% bonus damage from Divine Tempest, and the 15% from Righteous Blade, and we get 202% of weapon damage as holy damage per target. Now, let's assume - as we pretty safely can, with Mass Judgment - that the target we're considering has the Judgment debuff on them. Then Divine Storm will do ~264% of weapon damage to the target. Add on the Echo of the Highlord, and we get somewhere between 403% and 527% of weapon damage as holy damage per target or 403%, depending on which of our % modifiers get applied to the Echoed spell. This, of course, is before mastery. With the 45% bonus damage from mastery "in typical gear" cited in this blog post, this becomes anywhere from ~522% of weapon damage to ~765% of weapon damage, again depending on which bonuses apply to the Echoed spell. Note that we can do this in a single GCD! For comparison, in a 1.5 second GCD, a Fury warrior's Bladestorm does (again, in typical gear as quoted in their Warrior preview) ~922% of weapon damage as physical damage (so, assuming similar armor coefficients to the past, ~626% of weapon damage in reality), and that's on a one-minute CD.

Our AoE as it stands honestly seems pretty decent. With that said, tuning is obviously totally out of whack - but mechanically, there's no reason our current setup couldn't have us be decent at AoE and single-target. While our talents will let us choose which of the two we are better at, the fact that such a huge portion of our damage is baked into finishers which are largely talent-agnostic means we probably won't be terribly weak either way unless tuning is extremely poor.

Firstly the question for numbers are , are they multiplicatively or additive? This changes much from a viewpoint of sheer damaging perspective.
Also as Ruiizu stated we have currently no idea how the Artifact actually works, is it a replacement , or an addition. The question with the fromer is: How wide is the line in which DS travels , if it is somewhat narrow than we have firstly to position ourselfs in order to hit many targets.
If the latter is the case than now the question becomes: Will hit only once , or twice the targets it travels through?
Than the question becomes , how long will the adds last?
And this is my main point here. If the adds are dying were fast than we can mostly only once or twice use DS , that while deals massive damage is now the question if it is going to be comparable to the spammable AE's of others.
So my point isn't actually the numbers , as for we cannot really argue about them , it is how fast can we bring in ,and how many , DS before the adds are dying.
So my concern is that we are going to become like we are currently , were our AE hits actually for pretty much , but is so slow to use that we simply cannot get enough of them for it to matter. While the FV weaving is gone , which makes the usability of DS faster , it is still somewhat a concern of mine.

[Found]

Firstly the question for numbers are , are they multiplicatively or additive? This changes much from a viewpoint of sheer damaging perspective.

As far as I know, most %-damage effects in the game are multiplicative. There's no good reason to think they'd suddenly change them to be additive in Legion.

Also as Ruiizu stated we have currently no idea how the Artifact actually works, is it a replacement , or an addition. The question with the fromer is: How wide is the line in which DS travels , if it is somewhat narrow than we have firstly to position ourselfs in order to hit many targets.
If the latter is the case than now the question becomes: Will hit only once , or twice the targets it travels through?

The calculation I made assumes it's a replacement. Note that Divine Tempest is not actually the artifact trait that has the largest effect - Echo of the Highlord is. While the exact functioning of Echo is up in the air, fairly sensible assumptions lead to it being a huge DPS increase.

Than the question becomes , how long will the adds last?
And this is my main point here. If the adds are dying were fast than we can mostly only once or twice use DS , that while deals massive damage is now the question if it is going to be comparable to the spammable AE's of others.

Again - we can Divine Storm about once every 5 seconds on average. But note that, even in the mostly single-target setup I linked earlier, this is not our only AoE - we also have Judgment, which does either 218% of spell power (65% chance) or 902% of spell power (35% chance) to each target (so an average of about 457% of spell power), and Wake of Ashes, which does 500% of weapon damage (is this affected by our passive? if so, 525% of weapon damage) per target. Wake is on a one-minute cooldown, but also grants us 5 holy power - letting us spend even more Divine Storms immediately following it.

So my point isn't actually the numbers , as for we cannot really argue about them , it is how fast can we bring in ,and how many , DS before the adds are dying.
So my concern is that we are going to become like we are currently , were our AE hits actually for pretty much , but is so slow to use that we simply cannot get enough of them for it to matter. While the FV weaving is gone , which makes the usability of DS faster , it is still somewhat a concern of mine.

There's really only two major kinds of AoE: burst AoE (like Kormrok hands) and sustained AoE (like Assault or Xhul'horac). Like today, in order to do good burst AoE we have to prepare for it. This is somewhat of a weakness relative to Warriors or today's Demonology Warlocks (though we don't know how they'll look in Legion!), who don't have that prep time - but it introduces some skillcap to Retribution play on fights that require it. In sustained AoE, we actually look quite good at the moment - again, with Divine Storm packing a pretty major punch every five seconds, we may not be the best sustained AoE class, but we will probably be good.

Remember that the nature of spec balance means that we can't have the best sustained AoE and the best burst AoE and the best two-target cleave and the best single-target. Ultimately, we'll be weak somewhere. Right now in Legion, we're looking fairly weak in two-target cleave situations. We look like we have a good shot at being decent in burst AoE (assuming we have some prep time), sustained AoE and single-target scenarios. Hard to say, until tuning is done, if this will actually happen - but the design of our core mechanics looks favorable.

EDIT: This isn't to say that I think our current Legion mechanics are perfect. I think Blessing of Might is terrible gameplay - there's no point in giving us "unique" utility if you're going to make using it a DPS loss. Warriors don't lose 3% of their DPS by casting Vigilance, or in Legion by casting Commanding Shout (by the way - why do DPS warriors still have a raid CD with the loss of nearly every other raid CD in the game)? I would rather see Blessing of Might removed, and our damage tuned appropriately, than have it be in the game in the form it's in now.

I also think the new Conviction has to stack. Whether this means the next ability is (number of stacks) cheaper or the next (number of stacks) abilities are cheaper is up to Blizzard. For all the moaning about the old Conviction, there was really only one sane scenario where you might waste a Holy Power - if you cast BoJ at 3 Holy Power. This actually happens very rarely, and never happened with Blade of Wrath or Divine Hammer. With the new Conviction, you could easily waste Holy Power equivalents if it happened to proc on two Crusader Flurries in a row, or any of a number of other scenarios.

I also think there are core issues with a couple of our talent rows - in particular the level 100 row.

[Morally Grey Storm]

I keep hearing people saying they are liking what they're seing about Ret come Legion.
Ss I ask unto thee, explain unto me this talent "Eye for an Eye" , and what you like about it.

[RagnorZ]

I keep hearing people saying they are liking what they're seing about Ret come Legion.
Ss I ask unto thee, explain unto me this talent "Eye for an Eye" , and what you like about it.

I like that it means you only have to choose out of the two other talents in that row, ain't nobody got time for pvp talents in the pve talent tree...

[ipoststuff]

Eye for an Eye is pure garbage. TV does 320% holy damage. FV does about 370%. And with mastrey FV'd be like 500%. Add Echo of the highlord to that. A single FV would do more damage than EfaE even if 10 attacks were countered. And you deal the damage to the target you want.
Why would anyone spend a talent on a very situational skill that doesnt even yield the same output of FV in best case scenario?

Now if it didnt cost Hopo with a cooldown like 30-60 seconds. That could possibly be usable. Needs some testing.

[Morally Grey Storm]

I like that it means you only have to choose out of the two other talents in that row, ain't nobody got time for pvp talents in the pve talent tree...

okay, so it's pvp talent how?
What makes you think it's pvp talent at all?

Now if it didnt cost Hopo with a cooldown like 30-60 seconds. That could possibly be usable. Needs some testing.

usable exactly how?
For damage, you better use TV.
For defence.. well, its not defensive skill.

[ruiizu]

okay, so it's pvp talent how?
What makes you think it's pvp talent at all?



usable exactly how?
For damage, you better use TV.
For defence.. well, its not defensive skill.

Eye for an Eye is a good idea, but badly implemented. Because Templar's Verdict does so much damage with all the perks, it really devalues the "counterattacks," which only deal 100% weapon damage (as far as we know). As is, it can only really function if it deals back damage in excess of Templar's Verdict.

The only other ways I can see it working would be:
1. Reduces damage taken in some way in addition to counterattacking
2. Reflects all damage instead of just physical damage.
3. Usable on other players

[Morally Grey Storm]

Eye for an Eye is a good idea

That is what I am asking: WHAT is the idea behind E4E?
Its surely not a defensive cd and it cant compare to actual finishers.
Then whats to it?

[ruiizu]

That is what I am asking: WHAT is the idea behind E4E?
Its surely not a defensive cd and it cant compare to actual finishers.
Then whats to it?

The essential point is to have a "revenge" type ability. The idea behind any "revenge" attack is that it's only powerful when you're being attacked, but it is considerably MORE powerful than your other options if you're being assaulted directly. It makes you a poor target choice.

Compare it to Blazing Light, which makes you a good target choice because you can heal (if you aren't being attacked) for a very respectable amount. It's a decent type of option.

An ability doesn't need to reduce damage taken to be defensive if it forces the target to not attack you. However, it does nothing for dragonslaying. It is only useful against players or solo content (unless they just give us Retaliation with no CD, but that's SUPER unlikely and way too strong).

[Morally Grey Storm]

An ability doesn't need to reduce damage taken to be defensive if it forces the target to not attack you. However, it does nothing for dragonslaying. It is only useful against players or solo content (unless they just give us Retaliation with no CD, but that's SUPER unlikely and way too strong).

So you basically have to withstand 10 white swings to remove the "forces to not attack you part" ?
Great.
And let's be honest here, white swings(especially an limited amount of) wont discourage anyone from attacking Ret.

[Lunavale]

I'm curious, If e4e counterattacks where hitting for like TV lvl damage, would you like it?

*note I'd hate it regardless cause I pve

[Morally Grey Storm]

I'm curious, If e4e counterattacks where hitting for like TV lvl damage, would you like it?

*note I'd hate it regardless cause I pve

I'm curious, why would you ask such retarded question?

*note I don't like mechanic behind this skill to begin with.
it fails as defensive cd and its offensive power can be offset through meagre HoT

[Lunavale]

Because the post right above mine was complaining about it not doing enough damage to dissuade anyone from hitting the Ret, plz try to make sense.
If it were hitting that hard, you'd get wrecked if you continued to hit the Ret (unless you're ranged or something, I assume it doesn't work then). TV is hitting really hard right now.

Then I'll ask another question. What if it did tons of damage, and prevented the attacks from hitting you?(i.e., was actually a defensive cd)

The point I'm trying to get at though: Is it a problem of the mechanics of the spell just don't work(like how it doesn't do shit for you in pve), or is it just too weak?

[Morally Grey Storm]

Because the post right above mine was complaining about it not doing enough damage to dissuade anyone from hitting the Ret, plz try to make sense.

exxagerates much
asks to make sense from others
such wow

If it were hitting that hard, you'd get wrecked if you continued to hit the Ret (unless you're ranged or something, I assume it doesn't work then). TV is hitting really hard right now.

and if it is hitting that weak, costs us a TV, works only against melee attacks from the front and for set amount of instances, whats the point?
Fine tuning needs to happen.

A question needs to be answereth: why thine talent is in the PVE tree?

Then I'll ask another question. What if it did tons of damage, and prevented the attacks from hitting you?(i.e., was actually a defensive cd)

I'd be happy if it had slightly fewer "if's", as in: no set amount of attacks, working possibly against ranged attacks via parrying them somehow.
No need for tons of damage.
What is needed is a solid, useful not gimmicky ability.
I'd rather it was a cd which, upon activation, made a decent percent of damage caused to you be constantly reflected upon attackers, be it ranged, melee or magic.

[Snegovik]

Blizzard should make E4E reflect all damage magical/physical, this way our PVE friends here can benefit from it either for leveling, dungeons, or raid encounters where Boss does aoe dmg, or places DOTs/Bleeds on you. Also Blizzard gotta remove that requirement that target has to be in front of you to reflect dmg (from PvP point of view), since melee can sit on your side, or behind you (rogue/feral/war) and laugh at our E4E while we sit in stun. Personally I believe Rets need more defenses against magic dmg not physical for rated-pvp (RBGs, most DPS are casters, Arena most of the teams have atleast 1 DPS with magic dmg) even our own finisher FV is magic, hence to make it usable in pvp over FV dmg, E4E has to be more than simple counter attack 10 melee swings, since atm it doesnt do much for Rets in PvP either.

[ruiizu]

exxagerates much
asks to make sense from others
such wow


and if it is hitting that weak, costs us a TV, works only against melee attacks from the front and for set amount of instances, whats the point?
Fine tuning needs to happen.

A question needs to be answereth: why thine talent is in the PVE tree?



I'd be happy if it had slightly fewer "if's", as in: no set amount of attacks, working possibly against ranged attacks via parrying them somehow.
No need for tons of damage.
What is needed is a solid, useful not gimmicky ability.
I'd rather it was a cd which, upon activation, made a decent percent of damage caused to you be constantly reflected upon attackers, be it ranged, melee or magic.

I don't know how the internal cooldown works on Eye for an Eye, but obviously it could be very potent for leveling and questing. It is definitely totally worthless in raids, especially given that regular swings don't do anything but damage (no procs, etc.) so there's no benefit to that. If there's an internal cooldown, it becomes next to impossible to get all the swings during the duration, and if not, then you could dump some serious damage into a Rogue, but not really more than TV at present.

The idea behind Eye for an Eye is definitely to give us an alternative use for Holy Power. Given its current applications, it would probably be better off in the PvP tree with different effects.

What did you think about the possibility of it being a target skill rather than a self buff? Also, we already have a damage reflection CD in Shield of Vengeance, so I don't think it makes sense to have two nearly identical effects. Would it be too strong for us to have a 3 Holy Power short duration mega-parry talent? But that also doesn't really fit the "eye for an eye" motif.

I do think there's potential in having a Holy Power defensive skill, I'd just like to know what ways it could be done. Demon Hunters are again taking the good stuff, because Eye for an Eye could be really cool if it took whatever debuffs you have and copied them to an enemy target or reversed them to their caster (but again, DH already has that).

I know it's almost bordering on ridiculous, but you could make a distance closer out of the skill too. When activated, the next attack you receive from over 15 yards away will miss, causing you to rush to the target and smite them. I really doubt that one would happen, but it does sound super cool.

[tonicsargeras]

I'm really liking Zeal in the latest build. It's actually more fun than Flurry.

Would be nice if we had some kind of mechanic based on our basic attacks, like Art of War resetting BOJ cooldown.

[Reghame]

E4aE is on a 2ish second ICD per target attacking you or so. the problem i have with this talent is how badly it scales and how it limits itself in so many ways.