[7.0] New Paladin Abilities and Talents

[Demsi]

I'm really going to miss Light's Hammer. At least, I can't find it anywhere among the talents for Legion. But we are getting some sweet stuff to make up for it. Hammer of the Righteous with no CD at level 15? Holy Shield AND Seraphim because they're on different rows now? Or, when you want to pull the whole train: http://legion.wowhead.com/spell=204077/final-stand

Holy paladins gets Lights hammer

http://legion.wowhead.com/talent-calc/paladin/holy

[Reghame]

final stand was so boss when it didnt have to compete for seraphim AND reduced the CD of bubble in half was such a cool talent. Now i only see seraphim being used honestly

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BTW those rings are purely flavor as well, nothing too special. AKA ours is a chance to blind on targets hitting us (not sure the duration, what it implies, proc rate, w/e but could be decent for prot) and things like shamans is gain health regen while standing in water.

All for flavor. heroic dungeons gear has higher ilevel anyhow so no real use for them atm (heroics is 815ilevel ATM)

[Teleros]

All for flavor. heroic dungeons gear has higher ilevel anyhow so no real use for them atm (heroics is 815ilevel ATM)

I'm wondering if they'll be upgradable somewhere along the line.

[ruiizu]

Ashbringer also cuts the shit out of anything in it's way like a darksouls 1 DMB falchion too :P

(btw prots damage will be nerfed soon, their damage is rivaling most DPS for single and AOE atm, do not expect it to last. For pvp it is even worse considering some of their talents really do ramp up their damage even harder.)

It's not really the damage that's so much the issue for me. I'm expecting them to be doing 20% less damage than DPS by the time live hits. But their tools are just so much more amazing and fun to use, they make a lot of sense as well. I may very well be hanging up the "big falchion" for sword and board, at least in PvP respects. Consecration's bonus effects, 20 second CD horsie, and two powerful ranged attacks really make the whole setup feel good. Also, it has attacks off the GCD (Shield of Righteousness), so it's especially active.

Ret well...it has some okay stuff I guess. But honestly none of it really feels exciting. The most exciting addition was Wake of Ashes, but in practice it sometimes feels bad because of the wasted Holy Power (and there's no mechanic that uses wasted Holy Power, such as a buff, an explosion of holy energy, pillars of light, whatever).

[Cien]

It's not really the damage that's so much the issue for me. I'm expecting them to be doing 20% less damage than DPS by the time live hits. But their tools are just so much more amazing and fun to use, they make a lot of sense as well. I may very well be hanging up the "big falchion" for sword and board, at least in PvP respects. Consecration's bonus effects, 20 second CD horsie, and two powerful ranged attacks really make the whole setup feel good. Also, it has attacks off the GCD (Shield of Righteousness), so it's especially active.

Ret well...it has some okay stuff I guess. But honestly none of it really feels exciting. The most exciting addition was Wake of Ashes, but in practice it sometimes feels bad because of the wasted Holy Power (and there's no mechanic that uses wasted Holy Power, such as a buff, an explosion of holy energy, pillars of light, whatever).

this could be pretty cool

[Snegovik]

@ruiizu Disregarding the overtuned damage we have right now, prot is definitely desirable in PvP. I wonder if there'll be any comps including prot right off the bat. Can any of you pvpers in here think of a comp that prot could be a part of?

As for PvE, Holy has a lot of mixed feelings. Some like the idea of standing closer to melee (we no longer have to do damage in order to heal, thank god) and some dislike it. I actually like it, it's extremely fun imo. Ret seems to be the only spec lacking in every category except damage. Unfortunate, glad I went holy though.

Again, for the pvpers, prot has everything we've been asking for in terms of ret as Ruiizu said. If you're in the beta try it out, it's really fun and it feels fantastic to have all these tools that ret needed. Prots visuals are awesome, has everything we've wanted for ret except the ashbringer but honestly that's not enough to make me wanna play ret that often. I'm only going to play it to grab the skins just in case we get to keep them past Legion (not the actual original version, but all the skins).

I plaid prot for fun at one point to about 2.5k cr in 3s, and even though it was a dumbed down version of Ret's arena game play, the faceroll was pretty fun =), Prot's str was (back when i tried it) always vs caster heavy teams or healer swaps: silence into stun + u never die, hence u litterly have 80-85% uptime on ur target (since its hard to cc prot). My guess comp wise will determine the final tuning (as @Reghame pointed out that dmg will be nerfed) if prot's ST is high, u can perhaps see comps like Sub,DK,DH,War+Prot+Disc or Rdrood just rape healers or fast swap from a soft caster to a healer. Hell even ProtP/UA/Rdrood can be Good if Prot's sustain dmg/heals are good.
However, if Prot's St will be low, but heals and aoe is decent, hell u may see comps like 3x tanks ProtP/Blood/ProtP or 2nd Blood, and just outlast the enemy team, before u roll ur eyes at this dumb comp (because it is pretty stupid) there was actually a 3xTank team on EU relatively recently (maybe 1 year ago or so?) they ran Blood/Brew/Brew and got 2.7k? something high.
Personally, I hope Blizzard will make ProtPally viable in RBGs somehow, either as an FC (but i think DH/Rogs will take this roll) or just a base holder/flag aoe in those big fights, but for this Prot's dmg MUST be high, otherwise ppl will just go with Unholly Dk.
P.S. Blizzard actually wanted to bring tanks back into rated PvP, did they say they want tanks do aprox 80% of DPS dmg? Lets say if prot does 80% of Rets dmg + silence + charge or knock back + survival + instant heals + actually good team's support, personally Prot looks better on paper than Ret, since Prot can actually stick to target and never die (yes u can LOS ur healer behind pillar, by tunneling enemy), id say Prot will do MORE dmg than Ret due to up-time. I will definitely give Prot a shot in PvP if its ST dmg is 80%+

[ruiizu]

I plaid prot for fun at one point to about 2.5k cr in 3s, and even though it was a dumbed down version of Ret's arena game play, the faceroll was pretty fun =), Prot's str was (back when i tried it) always vs caster heavy teams or healer swaps: silence into stun + u never die, hence u litterly have 80-85% uptime on ur target (since its hard to cc prot). My guess comp wise will determine the final tuning (as @Reghame pointed out that dmg will be nerfed) if prot's ST is high, u can perhaps see comps like Sub,DK,DH,War+Prot+Disc or Rdrood just rape healers or fast swap from a soft caster to a healer. Hell even ProtP/UA/Rdrood can be Good if Prot's sustain dmg/heals are good.
However, if Prot's St will be low, but heals and aoe is decent, hell u may see comps like 3x tanks ProtP/Blood/ProtP or 2nd Blood, and just outlast the enemy team, before u roll ur eyes at this dumb comp (because it is pretty stupid) there was actually a 3xTank team on EU relatively recently (maybe 1 year ago or so?) they ran Blood/Brew/Brew and got 2.7k? something high.
Personally, I hope Blizzard will make ProtPally viable in RBGs somehow, either as an FC (but i think DH/Rogs will take this roll) or just a base holder/flag aoe in those big fights, but for this Prot's dmg MUST be high, otherwise ppl will just go with Unholly Dk.
P.S. Blizzard actually wanted to bring tanks back into rated PvP, did they say they want tanks do aprox 80% of DPS dmg? Lets say if prot does 80% of Rets dmg + silence + charge or knock back + survival + instant heals + actually good team's support, personally Prot looks better on paper than Ret, since Prot can actually stick to target and never die (yes u can LOS ur healer behind pillar, by tunneling enemy), id say Prot will do MORE dmg than Ret due to up-time. I will definitely give Prot a shot in PvP if its ST dmg is 80%+

80% was the old number they had listed for raids. In practice, Prot loses some damage because Consecration is part of their single target rotation and there's no longer a glyph to take it with you. I'm not sure if they're sticking with that number, but they don't seem to like tanks to be too weak or else they don't work well in PvP and they also aren't fun to level as.

[Snegovik]

80% was the old number they had listed for raids. In practice, Prot loses some damage because Consecration is part of their single target rotation and there's no longer a glyph to take it with you. I'm not sure if they're sticking with that number, but they don't seem to like tanks to be too weak or else they don't work well in PvP and they also aren't fun to level as.

Hm makes sence, but i dont see another way to make Tanks viable in PvP without giving them enough dmg to kill some1 with a healer on a team, so i assume their dmg will be decent in pvp, since blizzards wants tanks to be viable in pvp, and the only way to make them viable is to give them decent dmg 80-85% of a DPS spec.

Honestly 2-3 month ago i would be against tanks being viable in PvP, but due to recent changes to Ret spec, or rather the lack of such, I really hope Prot Palla will be good @ arena, since Ret will prob suck.

[Reghame]

Prot paladin's healing is far inferior to ret ATM when it comes to PVP ATM because the only mentionable heal they have is LotP which is 22% missing hp(basically a flash of light for ret assuming the prot is near death.). only thing they have going for them really ATM is with fully artifact traits their avenger shield can deal tons of damage AND absorb for a lot (which is going down soon)

[Snegovik]

Prot paladin's healing is far inferior to ret ATM when it comes to PVP ATM because the only mentionable heal they have is LotP which is 22% missing hp(basically a flash of light for ret assuming the prot is near death.). only thing they have going for them really ATM is with fully artifact traits their avenger shield can deal tons of damage AND absorb for a lot (which is going down soon)

Reg but Prot heals are instant, while Rets u gotta hard cast it, unless u spec into WOG. But yes u right prot's heals are relatively weak compared to other hybrids; hence, as i mentioned above the only way Prot Pally can be viable in arena or RBGs is if its dmg is decent/high, since if it does not heal, it MUST dps to be viable in PvP.

[ruiizu]

Prot paladin's healing is far inferior to ret ATM when it comes to PVP ATM because the only mentionable heal they have is LotP which is 22% missing hp(basically a flash of light for ret assuming the prot is near death.). only thing they have going for them really ATM is with fully artifact traits their avenger shield can deal tons of damage AND absorb for a lot (which is going down soon)

The absorb will probably be increased to compensate for the loss in damage. Also, LotP heals for 33% (at least my tooltip was 33%) of missing HP, and it's instant cast with a relatively short CD and no cost. It's pretty damn good. They have Flash of Light the same as Ret though, so the only real difference is Word of Glory/Justicar's Vengeance.

Prot also heals anyone standing in Consecration when talented I believe, though it's a super mediocre amount. They've said they want tanks to be wanted in PvP and I think they're on the right track: the damage is just a bit too high.

[Felfaadaern Darkterror]

Holy paladins gets Lights hammer

http://legion.wowhead.com/talent-calc/paladin/holy

Ah ok, guess I can see that. I will miss tanking with it, but Holy deserves some fun stuff too.

[Reghame]

The absorb will probably be increased to compensate for the loss in damage. Also, LotP heals for 33% (at least my tooltip was 33%) of missing HP, and it's instant cast with a relatively short CD and no cost. It's pretty damn good. They have Flash of Light the same as Ret though, so the only real difference is Word of Glory/Justicar's Vengeance.

Prot also heals anyone standing in Consecration when talented I believe, though it's a super mediocre amount. They've said they want tanks to be wanted in PvP and I think they're on the right track: the damage is just a bit too high.

22% before traits, up to 28% if im not mistake maxed out. and standing in consecration will increase it by 20%. but again, it is % MISSING health, which matters a lot. And yes prot does have flash like ret, but prot paladins dont have a trait to increase their heal by 45% either (also seems stronger without the talent for ret anyhow not sure how)

and the heal from consecration is pitiful indeed. its like 1k a second at max level, which is nothing. You spec into that if you want the AOE slow for consecration honestly.
I also doubt any buffs will be coming for prot anytime soon for anything but % mitigation since their ability to DR through things is weaker than some tanks. Only reason they are so good ATM is because the amount of damage they bring is insane ATM.

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Ah ok, guess I can see that. I will miss tanking with it, but Holy deserves some fun stuff too.

they sort of get LH via the consecration talent. adds the healing and slowing portion that LH used to give while also dealing aoe damage. its overall stronger than LH would have been but is weaker per cast if that makes any sense

[Felfaadaern Darkterror]

22% before traits, up to 28% if im not mistake maxed out. and standing in consecration will increase it by 20%. but again, it is % MISSING health, which matters a lot. And yes prot does have flash like ret, but prot paladins dont have a trait to increase their heal by 45% either (also seems stronger without the talent for ret anyhow not sure how)

and the heal from consecration is pitiful indeed. its like 1k a second at max level, which is nothing. You spec into that if you want the AOE slow for consecration honestly.
I also doubt any buffs will be coming for prot anytime soon for anything but % mitigation since their ability to DR through things is weaker than some tanks. Only reason they are so good ATM is because the amount of damage they bring is insane ATM.

- - - Updated - - - they sort of get LH via the consecration talent. adds the healing and slowing portion that LH used to give while also dealing aoe damage. its overall stronger than LH would have been but is weaker per cast if that makes any sense

Yep. I'm not worried about functionality so much as I just loved the special effects tbh. I will say it was very convenient having it hot-keyed to same button I use for Death & Decay on my DK. But the special effects were better than D&D and it melted trash even faster!

[Deleted]

80% was the old number they had listed for raids. In practice, Prot loses some damage because Consecration is part of their single target rotation and there's no longer a glyph to take it with you. I'm not sure if they're sticking with that number, but they don't seem to like tanks to be too weak or else they don't work well in PvP and they also aren't fun to level as.

You also need to bear in mind that raid fights tend to require 2 tanks whether you have 10 people in your raid or 30. If tanks' damage was too low, this would make those fights even harder to tune for the different raid sizes.

[Vintersol]

I for myself will go tank in legion. Ret is simply no fun and i have the opportunity to join a good guild as prot. This eliminates also the worries about dps.

[Deleted]

still no beta club... T.T
may be a bit late but was someone part of raid testing and could make a rough assessment on how fucked we are by boss fight? Ideally along the lines of:
Boss | Movement | target swap | Adds | possible Utility | category i forgot |


Fun Fact:
My raid lead still insists on me staying ret. "you are to valuable as ret, can´t lose your support and priority add dmg."
Still hoping our new tank recruits are morons.^^

[Deleted]

still no beta club... T.T
may be a bit late but was someone part of raid testing and could make a rough assessment on how fucked we are by boss fight? Ideally along the lines of:
Boss | Movement | target swap | Adds | possible Utility | category i forgot |


Fun Fact:
My raid lead still insists on me staying ret. "you are to valuable as ret, can´t lose your support and priority add dmg."
Still hoping our new tank recruits are morons.^^

I guess you are gonna have troubles with that, as the target switching is pants. :/

[Deleted]

That´s why I ask for a list. Want to show him how things will look like and that switching to tank won´t lose him anything.

[Lunavale]

Fun Fact:
My raid lead still insists on me staying ret. "you are to valuable as ret, can´t lose your support and priority add dmg."

What support?