[Balance] Legion Discussion

[Deleted]

Just because you don't think it's a problem, doesn't give you the power to tell everyone else to play something else. Several people have repeatedly stated that they think this is a problem, and while the game shouldn't be changed just because we have an opinion about it, it certainly should just stay the same because you do.

Your arguments are also getting very far fetched, you're right, it would be silly to ask for Balance tanking. However, it's not so insane to ask for Starfall to be changed, because we've had a billion iterations of the spell already.

I'm not telling you to go play another class, I'm advising you, because I think it is extremely unlikely that blizzard agrees with you and is going to change it. And yes, it is rather silly to ask starfall to change as it is a core mechanic, and chances of blizzard doing another overhaul at this point is pretty much as close to 0 as it gets. I'm not saying your opinion is wrong, I'm saying that I disagree, and try to explain why it doesn't need to change.

[restoxpresso]

I'm not telling you to go play another class, I'm advising you

I don't wanna be a dick, but this thread is for discussing the Legion Balance Druid gameplay, and voicing concerns and opinions shouldn't be met with "go play something else". I think most people play a class/spec because they like it, so it's quite expected that some people will not like certain changes.

[Deleted]

I don't wanna be a dick, but this thread is for discussing the Legion Balance Druid gameplay, and voicing concerns and opinions shouldn't be met with "go play something else". I think most people play a class/spec because they like it, so it's quite expected that some people will not like certain changes.

Mate did you even read what I wrote? I could literally reply with the exact same post. I have no interest in deciding what you should play or not. Actually I couldn't care less what you decide to play. All I'm saying is that I think it is unrealistic to expect the game designers to change the game just to you liking, when you could just play something else that fits your needs. Example: you like playing FPS games. You don't post on the wow forums asking the devs to turn WoW into a FPS game. Yes, it is an extreme example, but you don't seem to get my point no matter how I explain it.

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Aoe damage has NEVER been balanced in this game. Why do you expect it to be balanced now?

[Alame]

Because I don't want a mindless playstyle where I don't have to think about how I play. I don't see our viability depending on it, thus I don't consider it a "problem".

So don't pick the talent. The playstyle isn't "mindless", it's exactly the same as beforehand, the only difference is the proportion of damage dealt by each ability is shuffled around.

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All I'm saying is that I think it is unrealistic to expect the game designers to change the game just to you liking, when you could just play something else that fits your needs.

The entire point of the beta & feedback process is for community members to present what they believe to be issues with the spec. If it were unrealistic to expect Blizzard to utilize player feedback there would be no Alpha invites and no Beta, it would be internal testing followed by launch.

Aoe damage has NEVER been balanced in this game. Why do you expect it to be balanced now?

"This has always been broken" is not a good reason why attempts to fix it should not be made.

[striderZA]

"This has always been broken" is not a good reason why attempts to fix it should not be made.

There has always been a pretty significant difference in the AoE potential of classes, pretty much since the beginning of the game, regardless of attempts to reduce this gap. The problem is that it is largely dependent on class design and tuning won't necessarily fix something like this, so I agree, complaining about it is pretty pointless.

[Alame]

There has always been a pretty significant difference in the AoE potential of classes, pretty much since the beginning of the game, regardless of attempts to reduce this gap. The problem is that it is largely dependent on class design and tuning won't necessarily fix something like this, so I agree, complaining about it is pretty pointless.

Good thing the argument is about a mechanical & design problem with Balance AoE and not a tuning problem then isn't it?

[striderZA]

Good thing the argument is about a mechanical & design problem with Balance AoE and not a tuning problem then isn't it?

Which is why I said that the difference in AoE potential stems from class design, different classes have different niches.

[restoxpresso]

Which is why I said that the difference in AoE potential stems from class design, different classes have different niches.

And as it's been said a billion times, Starfall's niche is now a lot more narrow than usual.

[Deleted]

"This has always been broken" is not a good reason why attempts to fix it should not be made.

It isn't broken. It is intentional. They aint going to change it.

[wing5wong]

And as it's been said a billion times, Starfall's niche is now a lot more narrow than usual.

you mean we have to press starfall now?
although i wouldnt mind if they chopped 10AsP off the cost, with SotF bringing it equal with SS

[Cyous]

Mkay, so I'm just going to lay down an ultimatum. You can either agree with it or not.

- Ramp-up time is not an issue beyond the first pack in a dungeon. Learn to throttle your Astral Power. Learn the math behind Multi-DOT'ing and Starfall. Learn to execute with your newfound knowledge.

-Everyone seems to HEAVILY underestimate Astral Communion. Shooting Stars is godly most content. Find each talent's niche based on your current needs. You're not a one-trick pony, but you are dependent on shuffling talent builds.

- Starfall is perfectly fine. Asa I said earlier, learn the math and perfect the gameplay before you claim something is mathematically weak. (Hint: Our AOE, as a whole, is really fucking strong.) We cannot be the best at everything; stop making it your expectation. We're above average (significantly) for literally everything expect damage mitigation.

_________________________

So, whether you agree or not. The spec is a lot better than what it was 3 months ago. It needs polishing, not a redesign.

[Kyanion]

Mkay, so I'm just going to lay down an ultimatum. You can either agree with it or not.

- Ramp-up time is not an issue beyond the first pack in a dungeon. Learn to throttle your Astral Power. Learn the math behind Multi-DOT'ing and Starfall. Learn to execute with your newfound knowledge.

-Everyone seems to HEAVILY underestimate Astral Communion. Shooting Stars is godly most content. Find each talent's niche based on your current needs. You're not a one-trick pony, but you are dependent on shuffling talent builds.

- Starfall is perfectly fine. Asa I said earlier, learn the math and perfect the gameplay before you claim something is mathemtically weak. (Hint: Our AOE, as a whole, is really fucking strong.) We cannot be the best at everything; stop making it your expectation.

Well keep in mind Cyous that we have to think of balance druids that aren't going to be excellent at the game. Some groups don't zip from pack to pack right away and any delays will crush a moonkin from getting started up again. Astral Communion could mitigate some of that but I don't know if it would be enough in that situation.

[Cyous]

Well keep in mind Cyous that we have to think of balance druids that aren't going to be excellent at the game. Some groups don't zip from pack to pack right away and any delays will crush a moonkin from getting started up again. Astral Communion could mitigate some of that but I don't know if it would be enough in that situation.

Not an issue after a few months.

[Kyanion]

Not an issue after a few months.

So maybe some tweaks could be made a few months after Legion launches.

[Alame]

This has ceased to be a discussion. I'm talking about a mechanical weakness in a common scenario that leaves the Druid unable to perform well regardless of their knowledge and skill. No one is reading what I'm writing, the lot of you are telling me I'm wrong because some garbage like "that weakness is intended" or "it's only a problem if you don't know how to play the class."

I'm not saying things need to be buffed (and the change I'm advocating adds zero damage, it simply moves damage from one source to another) and I'm not saying the spec needs to have no weaknesses (because once again, I'm advocating giving up our burst AoE to mitigate ramp-up time) and if any of you took the time to actually read what I'm writing and thing critically about it that would be pretty damn clear.

[Cyous]

Ramp-up is NOT an issue.

[Kyanion]

This has ceased to be a discussion. I'm talking about a mechanical weakness in a common scenario that leaves the Druid unable to perform well regardless of their knowledge and skill. No one is reading what I'm writing, the lot of you are telling me I'm wrong because some garbage like "that weakness is intended" or "it's only a problem if you don't know how to play the class."

I'm not saying things need to be buffed (and the change I'm advocating adds zero damage, it simply moves damage from one source to another) and I'm not saying the spec needs to have no weaknesses (because once again, I'm advocating giving up our burst AoE to mitigate ramp-up time) and if any of you took the time to actually read what I'm writing and thing critically about it that would be pretty damn clear.

Seems like most of the other people don't agree with your views on the topic. All we can do is propose ideas and changes and see what happens. But accusing people of failing to critically think over the issue is pretty weak.

[Lucrece]

Seems like most of the other people don't agree with your views on the topic. All we can do is propose ideas and changes and see what happens. But accusing people of failing to critically think over the issue is pretty weak.

By most you mean 3-4 other people. Go check the balance druid alpha forums and you'll get a more varied set of responses.

Ask PvP balance druids and they'll tell you how "strong" Starfall is in PvP now, which is to say it won't see the light of day over tunneling someone with Starsurge.

Balance druid functions well enough in raids, and that's where the enjoyment ends. In PvP, overworld PvE, and mythic dungeons you'll have casters with a frontloaded damage design that will be far more enjoyable and popular choices.

I think it's pretty obvious why many people are not keen on the astral power tuning when you've got an entire talent row dedicated to astral power generation to make the generation rate feel right.


And Astral Power DECAY rate is most definitely NOT fine. It is the fastest decay rate compared to other classes' resources by a mile. It's ridiculous.

[Kyanion]

By most you mean 3-4 other people. Go check the balance druid alpha forums and you'll get a more varied set of responses.

Ask PvP balance druids and they'll tell you how "strong" Starfall is in PvP now, which is to say it won't see the light of day over tunneling someone with Starsurge.

Balance druid functions well enough in raids, and that's where the enjoyment ends. In PvP, overworld PvE, and mythic dungeons you'll have casters with a frontloaded damage design that will be far more enjoyable and popular choices.

I think it's pretty obvious why many people are not keen on the astral power tuning when you've got an entire talent row dedicated to astral power generation to make the generation rate feel right.


And Astral Power DECAY rate is most definitely NOT fine. It is the fastest decay rate compared to other classes' resources by a mile. It's ridiculous.

*nods* I mean I am giving feedback where I feel the decay rate is not a lot of fun. I don't enjoy starting fights with 0 AP and not being able to on demand aoe anymore. I still feel like the time it takes to ramp up AP to actually fire off some starfalls or starsurges feels a bit slow as well.

I mean I don't have a big problem with what was said, just the 'critically thinking' line was a bit much for what should be a discussion where we all try and put out good thoughts and ideas on how to tweak balance before it is too late.

[Lucrece]

We're about 1 month away from pre-patch, so my hopes are a bit dimmed.

Looks like yet another xpac they half-ass a "revamp" of the spec, and then the next xpac they'll come back with another half-assed revamp to fix whatever mess they create with this one, because they simply don't want to commit real dev time to give us new spells and spell interactions. They just want to retool what we have by just changing the resources. Like did did in WoD.

Meanwhile we're still the only caster without a baseline snare, with a spell interrupt almost three times the cooldown of other caster interrupts, no real CC (roots that break on dot ticks and don't affect casters notwithstanding), crappy defensives and our utility got downgraded from something useful to us like Stampeding Roar into Innervate which is a button you only press for a healer (and a an artifact trait slot is wasted on that as well).

Personally just NOT a fan of a rage resource model on a CASTER, since warriors don't have their generation interrupted by movement/lockouts/stuns/interrupts and particularly since they generate rage from taking damage, so their output doesn't suffer in the duress of PvP.

Spec definitely looks the slower of all the casters besides affliction lock.