Resto Druid - Legion Talents

[stormgust]

That is way off for rings/necks, which is part of the point, particularly early on with sockets garunteed in crafts JC, it is almost 35 ilvl.

My bad here, I'm still stuck with the WoD mindset of every item having primary stats.

Here is a question for everyone; how confident can you be in a weight that an addon spits out when it is highly dependent on how you leverage it?

Does a low stat weight for Mastery in an encounter show that it is inherently weak, or is it also simply a measure of how well you used it?

That's all dependent on wether you can leverage it (does your toolkit allow it for a given damage pattern) and wether this is the optimal way to heal (i.e. is one healer focusing really a good idea, when all others perform optimal when each healer spreads heal evenly across the raid?).

[Torty]

I still don't understand why people think Mastery will be so good in 5m. Healing there is not insane, you can do it with other stats and gain dps from them. You only get as much Mastery as you need to keep people alive and after that it becomes completely worthless.

Every time you are facing a challenging content, you HAVE to dps as a healer and squeeze more dps as a tank. It's even more true in 5m, where your dps contribution matters much more than in 20m. If you choose to ignore dps, you will be doing lower lvls slower, thus gain slower "jump" in keystone and essentially waste even more time on top of already wasting time by not dpsing.

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Also, your very first socket provides 200 intellect instead of 250 secondary stat. That increases the value of first socket on your gear. In that case, you CAN have a situation where using a crafted neck or ring is better than using a slightly higher ilvl one than if it was only your second socket.

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You're basically saying what relative value do better secondaries have compared to the increased intellect on a higher ilvl item. Generally speaking anyone who REALLY cares will sim it to be sure, and everyone else is just going to equip the higher ilvl item, but yeah its not as if anyone is doing the math in their head, its just a ballpark

And a very dumb ballpark at that. Relative scaling of secondary stats to intellect changes with your ilvl. It absolutely doesn't work in a same way across all ilvls.

[dennisdkramer]

And a very dumb ballpark at that. Relative scaling of secondary stats to intellect changes with your ilvl. It absolutely doesn't work in a same way across all ilvls.

Changes with your ilvl AND changes with what your secondary stats are, so yea haha

[stormgust]

And a very dumb ballpark at that. Relative scaling of secondary stats to intellect changes with your ilvl. It absolutely doesn't work in a same way across all ilvls.

You're having it sound as if this change in scaling is certainly going to occur, but that is simply not the case. It depends on wether the change is secondaries is eventually large enough to counter the increases on spellpower/intellect. Now, if items usually provide twice the intellect when compared to secondaries, how likely is such a change going to occur? .

[Torty]

You're having it sound as if this change in scaling is certainly going to occur, but that is simply not the case. It depends on wether the change is secondaries is eventually large enough to counter the increases on spellpower/intellect. Now, if items usually provide twice the intellect when compared to secondaries, how likely is such a change going to occur? .

You have actually done zero math as obvious from your posts, have completely zero clue about how items scale in Legion and continue providing "insights" on things that you are apparently not interested in.

Going from ilvl850 head to 855 you gain 62 int and 26 secondaries. Going from 855 to 860 you get 65 int and 26 secondaries. 885 to 890: 86 int and 28 secondaries. 890 to 895: 90 int and 28 secondaries. It's actually the other way round from what you said. Given the slow scaling of secondaries and high base amount of them, their weights won't catch up to the weight of int as fast as it did in WoD. Early on ilvls will matter less than proper stat allocation and later on ilvl will have a larger role in choosing an item.

Next time you try to act smug at least make a small effort to spot the correct direction of a trend.

[stormgust]

You have actually done zero math as obvious from your posts, have completely zero clue about how items scale in Legion and continue providing "insights" on things that you are apparently not interested in.

All you've done is posting some numbers, which doesn't show how you got to them or wether your method is even correct. For example the gap between crit/vers seems odd. The only factor widening the gap between where you'd expect those stats to be according to their rating is living seed, and that shouldn't yield such large deviations (there is diminishing, but that can only lessen the gap in this case).

Going from ilvl850 head to 855 you gain 62 int and 26 secondaries. Going from 855 to 860 you get 65 int and 26 secondaries. 885 to 890: 86 int and 28 secondaries. 890 to 895: 90 int and 28 secondaries. It's actually the other way round from what you said. Given the slow scaling of secondaries and high base amount of them, their weights won't catch up to the weight of int as fast as it did in WoD.

I honestly fail to see how this is the other way round from what I've been saying. "eventually large enough" is precisely what you're saying here, and by itself does not say anything about wether it can or cannot occur, because that depends on the starting values are such that it occurs or not (at any point in time). If iLvL is the deciding factor at starting value, given the Legion changes, it may still hold to be the deciding factor at high iLvL, and that this solely depends on wether our secondaries are close enough in value or not (because then they are replaceable with a loss smaller than what you gain from iLvL)

Early on ilvls will matter less than proper stat allocation and later on ilvl will have a larger role in choosing an item.

Just because iLvL matters less, does not mean, that stat allocation matters enough to be the deciding factor.

Next time you try to act smug at least make a small effort to spot the correct direction of a trend.

I did, you on the other hand dropped some conditionals and consequently read it wrong. Maybe that would not occur, if you wouldn't always look for ways to flame someone.

[Torty]

and by itself does not say anything about wether it can or cannot occur

Coincidentally I posted my stat weights on the last page.

Just because iLvL matters less, does not mean, that stat allocation matters enough to be the deciding factor.

That's why I'm trying to figure out stat weights, but all you do is post loads of useless shit that is not even interesting to read, because of the broad statements and zero substance. All you are saying is "this is wrong" without providing ANY alternative or arguements as to why it's wrong. Just because you say it's wrong, doesn't make it wrong.

If iLvL is the deciding factor at starting value, given the Legion changes

Given Legion changes, ilvl is not the deciding factor in the start. Did you even read the numbers I posted? It's not exactly rocket science to notice that gaining higher percentage of your total secondaries in the start will matter more than gaining lower percentage (and same flat amount) of them later, on top of getting a higher flat amount of intellect gain will make it so that in fact gearing choices are reversed compared to what they were in the start of WoD. In the start of WoD Intellect was much further ahead of secondaries than it is in the start of Legion. In the start of WoD you were gaining disproportionally bigger value from ilvl upgrades due to this. In the start of Legion Intellect is closer to secondaries, because you have more secondaries, so their proper allocation is much more important.

Again. Normal Highmaul helm (655 ilvl) would give you 1,5% Haste and 1,1% Crit. Normal Emerald Nightmare helm (850 ilvl) would give you 3% Crit and 1,3% Haste. Heroic Hellfire Citadel Helm (710 ilvl) would give you 2,14% Crit and 2,35% Haste. That's why you weren't blindly picking every 5 ilvl upgrade in HFC as you did in 630 ilvl. I sincerely hope I won't have to do 5th round of explaining the same middle school level math.

I did, you on the other hand dropped some conditionals and consequently read it wrong. Maybe that would not occur, if you wouldn't always look for ways to flame someone.

I didn't read it wrong and from the stuff you still post it's apprent you don't even read what you are replying to. You are getting flamed, because you post factually incorrect stuff with zero arguementation and argue about numbers with vague terms without actually using numbers (sic!). Did it ever occur to you that when arguing about math problems you should try to type at least one numerical symbol in 4 posts worth of text to be taken seriously?

[Aleks0410]

Feel kind of bad for new druids coming here seeking guidance. Almost seems like we need a thread for flaming and one for updated, factual numbers.

Anyway. For mythic + and 12-13 man heroic raiding, stacking mastery/haste seems like an OK move?

InB4 you can do whatever you like in HC - i still want to min max..

[Keiyra]

Feel kind of bad for new druids coming here seeking guidance. Almost seems like we need a thread for flaming and one for updated, factual numbers.

Anyway. For mythic + and 12-13 man heroic raiding, stacking mastery/haste seems like an OK move?

InB4 you can do whatever you like in HC - i still want to min max..

If you are going do be doing a lot of mythic+ and plan on contributing decent damage (which you should) - i'd recommend haste/crit. Mastery is strong for healing 5 man, but it does nothing for your dps. I think whatever baseline mastery you get from gear you dont have alternatives for is enough but i wouldn't aim to stack it.

(then again, if you aren't comfortable doing damage in mythics + as a healer, then yes haste/mastery would be fine for a mythic+ and 12-13 HC raiding set up)

[theburned]

Feel kind of bad for new druids coming here seeking guidance. Almost seems like we need a thread for flaming and one for updated, factual numbers.

Anyway. For mythic + and 12-13 man heroic raiding, stacking mastery/haste seems like an OK move?

InB4 you can do whatever you like in HC - i still want to min max..

Ofc if you are not planning on doing any dps, mastery/haste is very good stats in mythic+, are you are doing hc I would assume that you arent trying to spend too much time dpsing in mythic+. For 12-13 man mastery should scale quite a bit better, and with a tank healing build these stats can blow up quite heavily, quite a bit of tank healing is fair to assume in a 12-13 man hc group. (look into abundance/cultivation/germination/MoC.)

[stormgust]

Coincidentally I posted my stat weights on the last page.

And the way you described it, you had those stats calculated based on your logs. It's essentially just reaffirming that you've choosen your stats in accordance with your playstyle. Nothing more.

Also, you posted two different weights. While they're for different datasets, Versatility - yielding constant benefit in all situations - should not show such excessive difference in terms of weight, so either at least one of those two set uses some incorrect method to determine weights, or they're actually both correct, yet applicable only to specific situation (up to including personal factors), and then the question should be wether statweights are actually worth anything as an advice to others (or it wouldn't just be better to give some general gearing rules, e.g. haste >= crit > vers >= mastery, mastery higher in smaller groups depending on your DPS needs - which is especially true if the respective stats are not all that far away from eachother in performance to begin with)

And there significantly more results on statweights available depending on:
How to treat overheal (should it be different per spell, per stat as crit has higher overheal, would you not treat it at all, because after all if you need heal, raw throughput matters)
Your talent build (this is obvious)
How you play your talent build in your raid (e.g. if for your raid Reju+Cult suffices, and someone else usually has Reju+Cult+WG, your result on mastery is different)
How a specific damage pattern forces a specific healing pattern (personal or in healing meta)
You probably could make an argument, wether it's even reasonable to consider more than two HoT stacks on the tank as contributing to mastery, as that would be compensated by lower overheal on other spells (foremost: crit/living seed).
And not everyone is raiding mythic raids, what about smaller raidgroups where mastery is more valuable?

Determining statweights from ingame data is completely worthless, because that more or less just shows the way you play with the way you play. You'd need to determine them prior based on a typical (i.e. broadly applicable) healing setup. As for what broadly applicable, that again isn't an easy decision.

That's why I'm trying to figure out stat weights, but all you do is post loads of useless shit that is not even interesting to read, because of the broad statements and zero substance. All you are saying is "this is wrong" without providing ANY alternative or arguements as to why it's wrong. Just because you say it's wrong, doesn't make it wrong.

I'm not saying it is wrong, I'm saying it may be unneeded - you never bothered to check wether any simpler method yields the similar results without being as restrictive (i.e. just applies to your personal healing game). As for an alternative, I think druid is a special case where the (rather simplistic) multiplicative model: SP*hastemod*masterymod (scales with stacks)*critmod*versmod yields sufficient result. And in that model, the order given by how rating converts into % is usually the optimal one (and as the total spread between conversion is small, higher iLvL is at least not worse than going for optimal stats).

Did it ever occur to you that when arguing about math problems you should try to type at least one numerical symbol in 4 posts worth of text to be taken seriously?

Well, here you go, if you want the statweights I ended up with: Int=1, Haste= 0.66, Crit = 0.61, Vers = 0.53, Mastery = 0.49. They could or could not be made up, at least they look realistic (and that's precisely the only statement which can be made about yours).

[Sprucelee]

As noted, the margin will not be dramatic, but it will make a difference. I think the best example would be something like Cultivation, it could be almost useless for certain fights, and it will be obvious when that is the case. But I think you touch on a good point, if you do not like something like SotF, and the clunky play-style ends up in you not using it "perfectly", than other talents might be best for you. That is certainly the intention of the Developers!

I would argue ToL is never "useless", but might fall behind SotF on paper. But that goes back to my recent posts, healing is a zero sum game, and that is why CDs always seemed to win out in previous expansions. At some point the healing team/raid covers the basic healing demands, and withstanding sniping each other, CDs end up being superior at covering spots (and progressing) where deaths are occurring.

So I would personally just be open to what feels best, adjust as needed, and play smart/flexible and realize when a talent fits or doesn't seem to be working for a fight. Test stuff out, it makes it more fun anyway! If the raid is rarely below 60%, then no Cultivation. If damage patterns seem awkward and do not line up with SotF well, then maybe swap out of it.

And this recent discussion has not even touched on healer damage, which is non-trivial, and far stronger all around in Legion IME. So much focus is being put on maximum healing output, yet that could all be turned upside down if healers are pressured to output damage more consistently then in other expansions.

Kind of makes the arguments over 5% variances in theoretical "maximum healing output" seem irrelevant, if damage becomes a focus on a significant number of encounters. And maybe that makes something like Cultivation rise in encounters it normally wouldn't, if a healing team is more focused on DPS, and less on topping off.

We shall see!

The point is if the damage patterns, and your healing team, doesn't mold itself to your cooldowns it DOES significantly reduced the value of SotF.

Much of your argument is based on G'hanir and Flourish synergy, and maximizing their output.

Realistically, how many uses do you expect to get each fight? lets say you pair them 30 seconds into the fight on the first use, are you going to hold the second flourish, or stagger the 2/3 so it lines up with the third G'hanir? Or do you hold it and expect the stars to align every 90 seconds thereafter? It's these assumptions that are underlying much of your TC that will not always hold up the the reality of progression raiding. Actually having CDs line up (without sitting on them) with appropriate damage spikes to fit your assumptions for SotF, in addition to the absence of other healers CDs, is being very generous. Having the flexibility to use Fourish/G'hanir at key times, without the expectation that they need to always line up with SotF, each other, or any other CD, has it's own value.

And while Prosperity helps with everything in between... it is far from making it completely flexible, there are still distinct periods where you are waiting on SM. And you are still completely devaluing SM into proc, as apposed to triage. Without NS, this matters more in Legion.



The whole point of shifting away from a CD based style of healing, and to a Rejuv focused style, is you are free to constantly triage targets that need it. Not "mindlessly spam Rejuvenation". IME that is by far the best roll for a Resto druid (outside of tank maintenance), constantly stabilizing the raid with smart target selection using Rejuv, in combination with more flexible WG usage, Efflo placement, and having extra mana for spot healing as needed. Not sitting on CDs, waiting for spikes to "dump everything", and outside of CDs, limiting yourself to LB/Efflo maintenance and couple rejuvs here and there.

Again, I am playing devils advocate here. At this point the synergy of completely WG focused healing is apparent with T19. I just like looking at this subject from perspectives beyond what looks good on paper.

Just like I Predicted. So much of the pre-legion TC, fixated on one set of talents as being mandatory, was garbage.

[Alltat]

Just like I Predicted. So much of the pre-legion TC, fixated on one set of talents as being mandatory, was garbage.

Depends on the spec and what it's supposed to be mandatory for. Resto has a bunch of talents that are great for five man healing but which are more or less useless in raids. For raiding, you're going to go 1233113 as your default build. But sure, the only healing talent that doesn't have a niche is Moment of Clarity (and arguably Abundance). Everything else is useful for something, though that something may only be one boss per tier.

The utility tiers do have some mandatory talents, though. Displacer Beast is simply better, Guardian Affinity is king for progress raiding (if you spend enough time doing DPS to even consider one of the other two, your raid seriously needs to drop a healer), and Typhoon is more useful than the rest of that tier combined.

[Hypasonic]

I've pretty much kept the same talents for most fight's, only swapping between blossoms and inner peace should the extra tranq be needed, and feral/guardian affinity if dps is needed. Not used the prosperity/soft on any fight thus far. Probably will for farm though.

[Sprucelee]

Depends on the spec and what it's supposed to be mandatory for. Resto has a bunch of talents that are great for five man healing but which are more or less useless in raids. For raiding, you're going to go 1233113 as your default build. But sure, the only healing talent that doesn't have a niche is Moment of Clarity (and arguably Abundance). Everything else is useful for something, though that something may only be one boss per tier.

The utility tiers do have some mandatory talents, though. Displacer Beast is simply better, Guardian Affinity is king for progress raiding (if you spend enough time doing DPS to even consider one of the other two, your raid seriously needs to drop a healer), and Typhoon is more useful than the rest of that tier combined.

You may be, because you were told it was the best by people here for months and months, but it is anything but the standard (particularly in reference to this thread), and 90% of the guides are complete trash. Cultivation is the top choice on 5/7, and ToL is also seeing heavy usage., and you would be hard pressed to find any top log with SotF. I am having a hard time finding any fight I want to use it on short of overhealing and farm content.

https://www.warcraftlogs.com/ranking...ec=Restoration

Part of this is simply the fact that cultivation makes mastery much stronger for us, and you can't just 0 out mastery on your gear, most still have an appreciable amount unless they are not artificially holding down their ilvl (which is a bad move).

[Alltat]

Cultivation is the top choice on 5/7, and ToL is also seeing heavy usage.

No, they're not. Looking at WarcraftLogs' data for mythic logs, Soul of the Forest is the most popular choice on every fight except Ursoc (ignoring Cenarius and Xavius as there are still very few logs). The "all bosses" view is a mess that doesn't use the full sample size, but if you check the page for each boss, you'll see that SotF is the talent of choice on every boss except Ursoc, who reliably triggers Cultivation every ten seconds.

The top half dozen or so often use some unusual talent setup, but beyond that it's pretty much all SotF. The "all bosses" data is garbage because it's only based on the top ten logs, which tend to be extreme outliers.

[Sprucelee]

No, they're not. Looking at WarcraftLogs' data for mythic logs, Soul of the Forest is the most popular choice on every fight except Ursoc (ignoring Cenarius and Xavius as there are still very few logs). The "all bosses" view is a mess that doesn't use the full sample size, but if you check the page for each boss, you'll see that SotF is the talent of choice on every boss except Ursoc, who reliably triggers Cultivation every ten seconds.

The top half dozen or so often use some unusual talent setup, but beyond that it's pretty much all SotF. The "all bosses" data is garbage because it's only based on the top ten logs, which tend to be extreme outliers.

Because of crap guides and advice like right here. Anyone that has a clue is not using it as their primary setup, and also scoring the top ranks...crazy how that works, huh? Popular..... lmao

[Torty]

So you are telling me top ranks use a talent that relies on people being low for prolonged period of time? Well, I'll be damned... Apparently raids need to take a lot of damage for you to get a good rank.

[Nevcairiel]

Because of crap guides and advice like right here. Anyone that has a clue is not using it as their primary setup, and also scoring the top ranks...crazy how that works, huh? Popular..... lmao

The top 10 on any of these charts usually get there due to extraordinary circumstances in the fights, not because their talent setup was so awesome.
Ignoring the top 10 and the bottom 10 is usually a good thing to do for any statistic.

[Alltat]

Because of crap guides and advice like right here. Anyone that has a clue is not using it as their primary setup, and also scoring the top ranks...crazy how that works, huh? Popular..... lmao

So you're saying that the majority of mythic raiders are clueless and that you know better, despite the fact that you have nothing to back that up and only have half the progression of the people you're criticizing? Keep in mind that the WarcraftLogs data only includes kills - it's easy to argue about what talents you think should be best on Cenarius or whatever, but if you haven't actually killed him, that's just speculation.

As for the top ranks, if you look at those logs you'll see that it's usually more about the raid setup than the druid. You need other healers to do low HPS overall but keep everyone alive so that you can get a kill with virtually no overhealing. You also need people to screw up just right, so that they take extra damage at the right time to give you more to do. Getting ranked in the top ten has nothing to do with skill. After all, there's only so much damage to actually heal, and being good won't change that. But you presumably already know this. You only care because those logs validate what you had already decided to do, probably because you simply don't enjoy SotF.