WW Legion mobility greatly improved! [PVP talents]

[Saverem]

I like the Zen Meditation change, only thing I'd change on it is decrease CD to 1.5m. 4s on a 3m cd is a bit sketchy.

But the fact that you no longer need to glyph it to move or have it removed by melee attacks is a big buff.


As for instant Effusion on BrMs, I think I'd rather keep the spammable 1.5s Effusions and get good ol' Guard.

[Deleted]

But the fact that you no longer need to glyph it to move or have it removed by melee attacks is a big buff.

I'm looking at the legion pvp talent calculator and I can't see anything in the description that tells us we can move while channeling it? http://legion.wowhead.com/talent-pvp#GiVV
The removal through melee attacks description isn't there so that is great but its still a channeled spell which mean is it easy to interrupt and it only lasts 4 secs while you channel it. Is that a better choice than Fortifying Brew or Whirling Kicks?

Now that I look at the Whirling Kicks talent it does seem like a Burst of Speed with a HoT at the cost of 1 chi, which probably mean we'll have to rely on healing and mobility rather than defensive abilities. Btw doesn't lvl 28 honor level sound a tad late to get our FoF stun back in PvP??? :S

[Saverem]

I'm looking at the legion pvp talent calculator and I can't see anything in the description that tells us we can move while channeling it? http://legion.wowhead.com/talent-pvp#GiVV
The removal through melee attacks description isn't there so that is great but its still a channeled spell which mean is it easy to interrupt and it only lasts 4 secs while you channel it. Is that a better choice than Fortifying Brew or Whirling Kicks?

Now that I look at the Whirling Kicks talent it does seem like a Burst of Speed with a HoT at the cost of 1 chi, which probably mean we'll have to rely on healing and mobility rather than defensive abilities. Btw doesn't lvl 28 honor level sound a tad late to get our FoF stun back in PvP??? :S

Exactly. It just says reduces 90% of damage for 4s. It has no mention of breaking once you move or take melee damage like with our current Zen.

[Firefall]

Interesting. Fury Warriors are also getting good mobility buffs, with what's basically a second Heroic Leap. I wonder if that and the WW Monk ones are rewards for DH intruding on our shared high mobility MDPS niche.

And not to bring things too far from mobility, but I love that we're getting so many pruned abilities back in Legion!

[Celede]

I don't know what I think about that last tier. I would LOVE to have the Tiger Palm talent but I feel like getting the one for FoF will be mandatory in all scenarios. Seems to limit choices to me - it is WAY too difficult to land FoF without the stun/+5 yd range.

[Deleted]

Exactly. It just says reduces 90% of damage for 4s. It has no mention of breaking once you move or take melee damage like with our current Zen.

Considering how most channeled spells require one to stand still we might need further descriptions to rule anything out, they are changing the baseline functions of FoF afterall. However I still find it hardly useful when you compare it to their current build for Whirling Kicks. At the very best the new Zen Meditation is like an ultimate defense you channel for 4 secs vs 20% dmg reduc + 20% hp for 15sec? vs "burst of speed" with 10% hp over 5 sec.

The new Zen Meditation build would work if its baseline for both PvE and PvP but seems way too weak compared to the other PvP talents.

[Saverem]

Considering how most channeled spells require one to stand still we might need further descriptions to rule anything out, they are changing the baseline functions of FoF afterall. However I still find it hardly useful when you compare it to their current build for Whirling Kicks. At the very best the new Zen Meditation is like an ultimate defense you channel for 4 secs vs 20% dmg reduc + 20% hp for 15sec? vs "burst of speed" with 10% hp over 5 sec.

The new Zen Meditation build would work if its baseline for both PvE and PvP but seems way too weak compared to the other PvP talents.

If it does break on movement, it would make zero sense to have it as a PvP ability. The other 2 abilities would be MASSIVELY better to have than a 4 sec ability that is broken by movement and is on a 3m CD.

So I'm going to say it will be usable while moving or they'll just remove it completely and replace it with something that is actually useful in PvP.


I mean, compare that with what BrM will be getting, which is a 40 yard AoE Zen that isn't removed from melee attacks. 10000000% more useful.

[dippinsawse]

[PVP POV]

IMPROVEMENTS
-Chi Torpedo no longer deals damage and is now in the mobility talent tier. This removes the jump roll for burst playstyle that many monks hate.
-Chi Explosion removed, making WW gameplay fast paced again hopefully. The talent tier consist of interesting choices like Spinning Dragon Strike and Chi Orbit.
-Fortifying Brew cd reduced essentially by 50%, but Whirling Kicks looks stronger survivability wise, especially if you can consistently hit 2-3 targets with it. Jab -> SCK -> Jab -> SCK for disturbing amounts of healing. Potentially too strong.
-Fists of Fury now usable while moving, and with the talent, gets increased range and the stun! Could be potentially too strong.
-Freedom Roll glyph becoming a PvP talent, but competes with another interesting choice, double Flying Serpent Kick.
-Surging Mists redesigned into Effuse. Otherwise the same thing, but instant.

CONCERNS
-Nimble Brew removed.
-Karma still at 50%.
-Tigereye Brew redesigned to become a 1.5 minute cooldown rather than the current stacking mechanic. Also means the loss of on demand 20% damage reduction through current 4 pvp set.
-Major glyphs removed, therefore glyphs like Paralysis / Touch of Karma removed as well. The effects don't seem to be baked into their respective spells currently.


To me it looks like monks are going to become even more squishier and now have even greater emphasis on mobility in order to survive. With TEB being totally redesigned, I hope we are not completely useless without it, and are able to create pressure without relying on cooldowns.

1) A lot of monks also love the jump rolling, myself included. It is a fun mechanic that is part of a rewarding (if minor) skill cap element. The best part about it is that it is good burst damage off of the GCD which makes it basically free damage for creative/informed players. The only real problem with it is that it comes at the cost of your iconic mobility skill but I think in Legion with some of the new mobility options you wouldn't even feel it which makes this a disappointing loss. Not to mention they are mostly doing it to give Demon Hunters the damage dash.

2) Chi Explosion did make gameplay too slow paced but with the loss of it and the loss of TeB's unique mechanic we are losing a lot of depth. I also don't think talent tier is very compelling because Chi Orbit seems to be the clear winner. It does a LOT of free damage and gives monks a high pressure opener--expect a lot of monks rolling face in 2's in low-mid level mmr (they are going to run in, Chi Orbit > ToD > spam attacks while being impossible to peel because of the bottom pvp talent tier).

3) I love whirling kicks. I'm a big fan of merging functionality into interesting abilities to add depth and flavor. I can't wait to tatsu around the map at massive speed.

4) Finally Fists of Fury isn't garbage. For a class that relies so much on setting up damage it was dumb for there to be so many layers of counter play available to stopping their main burst ability. The problem now though is that monks lost all of that setup so now it is faceroll. You will just run in and pop everything like every other retard class and without the old limitations it is both unrewarding and will need some tuning which likely means making it feel unsatisfying in the first place.

5) Double flying serpent kick won't compete with freedom roll. We already have so much forward burst mobility, having another FSK won't do shit compared to snare removal. The only reason FSK seems good now is because we waste so much mobility on damage and can't really afford to have freedom roll anyway so having ANOTHER mobility skill seems useful when that likely won't be the case in legion.

6) Not the case. Effuse is a weaker heal but still has a cast. Effusion is a Brewmaster only pvp talent that modifies effuse to become instant.


CONS:

1) Nimble brew removal sort of makes sense. I see what they were going for with putting it in the game in the first place because CC punishes mobile classes so much. It's just that having an extra trinket is not the right way to balance around that. Personally I think they should remove it and find better ways to accomplish this. Like perhaps put some CC immunities on short duration abilities like roll or something.

2) Karma should be diminished. It's such a strong ability that it restricts monk design. It hurts to lose that 100% but at the same time it seems they are moving monks more away from being about ramp up > burst and more about having high up time and then using heightened on-demand mobility defensively when needed. I like that design if it is done well to be honest. Hopefully it works out.

3) I really hate the TeB change. It is the worst. If I wanted to play a class with generic damage cooldowns I could just close my eyes and click randomly on character creation. I'm not really worried about the loss of the 4 piece, though, because that can be fixed through balancing. I just hate the loss of a core mechanic that dictated the monk playstyle. We lost one of the main reasons to play the class in the first place with this change.

4) The loss of para glyph is a bit strange. There isn't ever really a reason to have it leave DoTs on a target. As for karma I'm not sure what I think. With some of the other changes we seem to have enough mobility as it is so getting in range of our preferred karma target doesn't seem like much of an issue. I also think the ability makes more sense as a melee skill thematically but for sure this hurts us balance wise.

[XangXu]

I think a more interesting talent then having 2 FSK would be having the ability to control the direction, just like running or mounted, while in mid FSK.


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