[PROT] Protection artifact talents

[ReD-EyeD]

Is it me or weapon talents are like 9/10 damage talents? It's okay to make the class more interesting via dps, but I really want at least half of the talents to be for defense/utility. Yes, aggro is an issue too, but I don't really remember when was the last time I had problems with holding it, may be somewhere around vanilla/bc.
Yes, talents are not finished yet, but I'm just talking about the direction.

[Deleted]

maybe the weapon talents are for offensive purposes and defensive for shield?

[ReD-EyeD]

maybe the weapon talents are for offensive purposes and defensive for shield?

No, Shield+Sword is one artifact and one talent tree.

[Murlocbait]

I don't really get a lot of the design decisions on these trees. Look at Frost and Unholy for DKS... there are 2-3 in each of them that boost defense, for damage-dealer specs. I mean, i guess it's always fun to do more damage even as a tank, and it helps for questing and every bit of damage helps a raid, but I too was expecting more interesting utility and defensive mechanics. The other thing irritating me is how often I see "you have a chance" in there. Like:

Might of the Vrykul (Rank 1) - When you activate Demoralizing Shout, you have a chance to reduce the cooldown of Shield Slam, Revenge, and Thunder Clap by 0% for 10 sec.

and

Scales of Earth (Rank 1) - Critical blocks have a chance to cause 3 black dragonscales to erupt out of your shield, increasing your armor by 30% and causing 0 damage and 0% vulnerability to any enemy hit.

I mean come on. How much fucking RNG is really needed here? So you have a chance to get a critical block, and when you do you then have a chance to cause the dragonscales to come out? FFS. I know it's still WiP and I'm curious to see how it all shakes out, but the RNG is just irksome. I would much prefer something you can count on with an internal CD to keep it under control, than RNG on top of RNG.

[Jellospally]

Dps talents are always welcome. They can just make tanks take less dmg from tier bonus and the likes.

Bears actually have quite a few rage generators and mitigation talents actually.

[ReD-EyeD]

I mean come on. How much fucking RNG is really needed here? So you have a chance to get a critical block, and when you do you then have a chance to cause the dragonscales to come out? FFS. I know it's still WiP and I'm curious to see how it all shakes out, but the RNG is just irksome. I would much prefer something you can count on with an internal CD to keep it under control, than RNG on top of RNG.

Found it funny too.
We hearthstone now.

[Deleted]

I don't really get a lot of the design decisions on these trees. Look at Frost and Unholy for DKS... there are 2-3 in each of them that boost defense, for damage-dealer specs. I mean, i guess it's always fun to do more damage even as a tank, and it helps for questing and every bit of damage helps a raid, but I too was expecting more interesting utility and defensive mechanics. The other thing irritating me is how often I see "you have a chance" in there. Like:

Might of the Vrykul (Rank 1) - When you activate Demoralizing Shout, you have a chance to reduce the cooldown of Shield Slam, Revenge, and Thunder Clap by 0% for 10 sec.

and

Scales of Earth (Rank 1) - Critical blocks have a chance to cause 3 black dragonscales to erupt out of your shield, increasing your armor by 30% and causing 0 damage and 0% vulnerability to any enemy hit.

I mean come on. How much fucking RNG is really needed here? So you have a chance to get a critical block, and when you do you then have a chance to cause the dragonscales to come out? FFS. I know it's still WiP and I'm curious to see how it all shakes out, but the RNG is just irksome. I would much prefer something you can count on with an internal CD to keep it under control, than RNG on top of RNG.

What if Might of the Vrykul is 80-100%. With heavy Repercusion you can extend the duration of your shildblock to 30-40 seconds, since it has no Limit in the Duration (see t17 Bonus).
Same with Scales of earth, a 50% Chance with a 10 sec Duration and it is a perma buff.
RNG is bad yes, but only if you have to gamble around it. Some rng only exist to not go overboard in damage when you tank multiple adds (Scales of earth).
And it is still Alpha, datamined, without any values at all, so don't Panic.

[Valech]

Shadowflame Shield (Rank 1) - Enter a defensive posture, causing all blocks to be critical blocks and a stream of shadowflame erupts out of your shield, dealing 0 damage to all enemies in an 0 yard cone.

Defensive AND offensive. No RNG.

Vrykul Shield Training (Rank 1) - When Ignore Pain ends, your block chance is increased by 0% for until cancelled.

Defensive. No RNG.

Scales of Earth (Rank 1) - Critical blocks have a chance to cause 3 black dragonscales to erupt out of your shield, increasing your armor by 30% and causing 0 damage and 0% vulnerability to any enemy hit.

Defensive AND offensive. Slight rng, critical blocks will be rather frequent.


Might of the Vrykul (Rank 1) - When you activate Demoralizing Shout, you have a chance to reduce the cooldown of Shield Slam, Revenge, and Thunder Clap by 0% for 10 sec.

Offensive AND rage generator (more shieldslam + more revenge = more rage). Rng.


Scales of the Earth-Warder (Rank 3) - Armor increased by 13%.

Defensive. No RNG.

Strength of the Earth Aspect (Rank 3) - Devastate damage increased by 13%.

Offensive. No RNG.

Rumbling Voice (Rank 1) - Duration and radius of Demoralizing Shout increased by 0%.

Defensive. No RNG.

Will to Survive (Rank 3) - Increase health bonus from Last Stand by 25%.

Defensive. No RNG.

Leaping Giants (Rank 3) - Reduce the cooldown of Heroic Leap by 13 sec.

Mobility. No RNG.

Dragon Skin (Rank 3) - Increase the amount of damage ignored from Ignore Pain by 8%.

Defensive. No RNG.

Tolerance (Rank 3) - Maximum Rage increased by 40.

Defensive. More pooled rage = more Ignore Pain spam in succession. No RNG.

Shatter the Bones (Rank 3) - While Shield Block is active, Shield Slam has a 20% increased critical strike chance.

offensive. Slight RNG, but the increased chance is guaranteed.

Wall of Steel (NYI) (Rank 1) - Intervene now redirects 0 additional attacks, and the damage taken from those redirected attacks is reduced by 0% (NYI)

Defensive. No RNG.

Reflective Plating (Rank 1) - Spell Reflect now reflects all spells cast on you for 0 sec.

Defensive. No RNG.

Toughness (Rank 3) - Increases Stamina by 13%.

Defensive. No RNG.

Thunder Crash (Rank 3) - Thunder Clap damage increased by 40%.

Offensive, but a nice tool for collecting spread adds. No RNG.



-----

So we have three talents, which are purely offensive, one of them being a powerful tool to ensure threat on spread adds.
Then we have one perk that might suffer from bad RNG significantly, and two perks that have a small RNG coefficient but are both passively triggered anyway.
Yet we have 9 perks being purely defensive and three more being defensive and offensive at the same time. Also, almost non of the perks except for the mentioned have RNG coefficients.

Still people are talking about how "so many" perks are damage related and "how heavily" influenced we are by RNG. I do not understand. Can someone explain?

[ReD-EyeD]

Most "defensive" traits you listed are pretty much pvp talents like reflective shield or rage bank and others are too situational like +hp for last stand.
For better comprehension check other tanks traits. We're like playing another game with them.

[Deleted]

Most "defensive" traits you listed are pretty much pvp talents like reflective shield or rage bank and others are too situational like +hp for last stand.

You don't know if we get some reflects out of new Encounters. And the last stand is somethig I love. Last stand + Ignore pain and i can finally cheat mechanics like the Monk and Druid could do in WoD.

Valech is Right, 11/16 of the traits are defensive and not offensive like you mentioned in the first post. Or maybe you need more Training in the math department.

[Recke]

I'm still gonna be upset at part of the theme. I know Shadowflame Shield used to be the cat's meow and all back in the day, but why is the starting point for Prot Warriors where their shield shoots shadowflames? I know the whole scale of Neltharion thing, but a scale doesn't breath shadowflame, and I doubt a vrykul king relied heavily on the magical ability of his shield to shoot out fire.

And @valech
I think people won't be considering minor talents, since those by nature (not 100%, because there are a few cool ones out there) are minor buffs to gameplay which is likely to be things like "increase x's damage by y%" or something. If you look at the 'core' talents of the artifact weapon (the gold border ones you listed first), you'll see that 3/4ths of them have an offensive aspect to them as a tank, and half of them contain a chance to do something.

[Deleted]

I'm still gonna be upset at part of the theme. I know Shadowflame Shield used to be the cat's meow and all back in the day, but why is the starting point for Prot Warriors where their shield shoots shadowflames? I know the whole scale of Neltharion thing, but a scale doesn't breath shadowflame, and I doubt a vrykul king relied heavily on the magical ability of his shield to shoot out fire.

And @valech
I think people won't be considering minor talents, since those by nature (not 100%, because there are a few cool ones out there) are minor buffs to gameplay which is likely to be things like "increase x's damage by y%" or something. If you look at the 'core' talents of the artifact weapon (the gold border ones you listed first), you'll see that 3/4ths of them have an offensive aspect to them as a tank, and half of them contain a chance to do something.

First there are only 3 Major for every tank spec so far and one Initail Trait.
But lets get to all the major tank traits so far:
DK: 2 Major include damage, all have def, one pure def. No Rng
Druid: 1 Major include damage, all have def, two pure def, No rng (Maybe •Adaptive Fur (Rank 1) a litte rng)
Warrior: 2 Major inlcude Damage, all have def, one pure def. Some Rng

And the Initial Traits:
DK: Damage + Def (Heal)
Druid: Debuff which reduced damage dealt (to everyone?)
Warrior: Crit block for days, and some damage.

If you ask me, the druid Majors look like garbage. Exspecially adaptive fure.

[ReD-EyeD]

Valech is Right, 11/16 of the traits are defensive and not offensive like you mentioned in the first post.

Yes, you can use the jump to avoid fire and void zones, but is that a defensive trait? Not.

You don't know if we get some reflects out of new Encounters.

You're right, I don't know. But I'm playing hardcore tank for more than 10 years already in this game and I'm still waiting for that special encounter with miraculous Spell Reflect mechanics.

And once again, please compare our talents/skills/traits to other tanks. Right now I see no reason to prefer warriors to paladins, dks or bears. Don't know how demon hunters will turn out though.

If you ask me, the druid Majors look like garbage. Exspecially adaptive fure.

We still don't know the chances. It could be an absolutely OP trait.

[Valech]

Yes, you can use the jump to avoid fire and void zones, but is that a defensive trait? Not.

That is why I have not marked it as defensive. Have you read my post?

You're right, I don't know. But I'm playing hardcore tank for more than 10 years already in this game and I'm still waiting for that special encounter with miraculous Spell Reflect mechanics.

You mean like the dark shaman encounter in Soo or Dia Darkwhisper in HFC, where you could use SHieldreflect on cooldown?

And once again, please compare our talents/skills/traits to other tanks. Right now I see no reason to prefer warriors to paladins, dks or bears. Don't know how demon hunters will turn out though.

IF there was no reason to prefer a tank over another, then Blizzard has FINALLY managed to balance right. In fact, someone compared our major traits + initial trait to the others. We look all pretty much the same.[/QUOTE]

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Most "defensive" traits you listed are pretty much pvp talents like reflective shield or rage bank and others are too situational like +hp for last stand.
For better comprehension check other tanks traits. We're like playing another game with them.

I admit, that the reflective shield trait will probably not have much purpose. But considering, that unending rage was/is pretty much an mandatory major glyph atm, rage bank is VERYA helpful for tanks. Pooling rage and being able to spam away certain abilities that increase your survivability will be awesome. Same goes for Last stand. It´s at least as powerful as Shieldwall when it comes to defensive cooldowns.

- - - Updated - - -

And @valech
I think people won't be considering minor talents, since those by nature (not 100%, because there are a few cool ones out there) are minor buffs to gameplay which is likely to be things like "increase x's damage by y%" or something. If you look at the 'core' talents of the artifact weapon (the gold border ones you listed first), you'll see that 3/4ths of them have an offensive aspect to them as a tank, and half of them contain a chance to do something.

I see that all of them have a defensive aspect and 1/4th of them have a RNG coefficient^^

[Vyrtt]

You're right, I don't know. But I'm playing hardcore tank for more than 10 years already in this game and I'm still waiting for that special encounter with miraculous Spell Reflect mechanics.

Don't forget that spell reflect has magic damage reduction baked into it in Legion. And the wording on the talent makes it seem as it it just increases the duration so you get more uptime on the damage reduction aspect of it regardless of whether or not you get to actually bounce the spell back.

[Sammonoske]

I'm still gonna be upset at part of the theme. I know Shadowflame Shield used to be the cat's meow and all back in the day, but why is the starting point for Prot Warriors where their shield shoots shadowflames? I know the whole scale of Neltharion thing, but a scale doesn't breath shadowflame, and I doubt a vrykul king relied heavily on the magical ability of his shield to shoot out fire.

The Vrykul practice rune magic and King Ymiron used magic to buff himself, so using a magic shield really isn't that big of a deal. Besides, warriors and fire are like bread and butter these days.

[Valech]

Don't forget that spell reflect has magic damage reduction baked into it in Legion. And the wording on the talent makes it seem as it it just increases the duration so you get more uptime on the damage reduction aspect of it regardless of whether or not you get to actually bounce the spell back.

This is at best only partially true.

Since most magical abilities in pve are not reflectable, the duration of the magical damage decrase will always be the full duration of reflect. Nowhere is it stated, that the magic damage decrase is gone IF a spell was reflected nor is it anywhere stated, that the trait will increase the duration of reflect. I believe, that the trait will work like the ashran book: Reflect doesn´t wear off once it reflected a single spell.

[Tipton]

Yes, you can use the jump to avoid fire and void zones, but is that a defensive trait? Not.


You're right, I don't know. But I'm playing hardcore tank for more than 10 years already in this game and I'm still waiting for that special encounter with miraculous Spell Reflect mechanics.

Essence of Desire, Black Temple. There you go

[ReD-EyeD]

Essence of Desire, Black Temple. There you go

Damn, I missed that, my life as a tank is empty now

[Valech]

Damn, I missed that, my life as a tank is empty now

Also, the two others I mentioned + that caster add at the troll council boss in tot