[LEGION] Brewmaster Discussion

[Rynzler88]

So out of the 3 new lvl 100 talent changes,

what appears to be the best for mitigation?

[Kageyn]

So out of the 3 new lvl 100 talent changes,

what appears to be the best for mitigation?

Depends on the fight, which is exactly what their goal was. I feel like Blackout Combo is a general all-purpose ability depending on what you use in your combos. the purify combo is pretty strong to negate burst, the isb combo is pretty uninteractive if you ask me, tigerpalm combo is just extra DPS, Keg Smash is pretty nice for getting all your defensives back up faster, and Breath of Fire is more DPS with the added 6% damage reduction from artifact.

Alternatively Elusive Dance is a bit of a set and forget talent, more stagger cleared is nice, and dodge+extra damage are also nice, probably the easiest to work with.

High tolerance will likely be really strong in high tier progression content because you constantly sit at red stagger so the haste will always give the full amount. Solo content will not really fill your stagger bar very much so you won't get a lot of benefit from HT outside of mythics and raiding.

[Valkaneer]

I think inherently classes that buff incoming heals from outside sources (Monk with Celestial Fortune, Druid with their Mastery) will need to be weaker solo against the dummy than a tank that does not buff incoming heals, just by class design. Otherwise there would be a pretty significant balance issue in actual raids. Which is why I don't think the dummy is necessarily the best for comparison. Also not a perfect comparison, but I think Monk vs Druid on the dummy would be a bit more valuable to see.

Anther point in favor of your post is Celestalon did say the idea was to be able to keep alive off of Hots. Making the Druid and other Hots healers more valuable to a BrM.

[Deleted]

Stagger shouldn't Interrupt Quest Items right?

I'm currently questing in Suramar and waiting 6 seconds for stagger to fall off before I can use a Quest Item is pretty annoying.

[Numbered]

Stagger shouldn't Interrupt Quest Items right?

I'm currently questing in Suramar and waiting 6 seconds for stagger to fall off before I can use a Quest Item is pretty annoying.

According to a blue post, this is working as intended >.>

Also, do we have an idea if haste > mastery right now? I'd imagine they change depending on which of the new level 100 talents you choose.

[Leblue]

Haste defensively will be your best stat. Right now the thing that crushes Brewmaster more than anything else is high sustained periods of damage. The best way to defend ourselves against this is to increase our coverage of Ironskin Brew and our ability to purify at a roughly 2 to 1 frequency to keep damage at a manageable level.

Also new build and a minor but pretty neat change. ISB and Purifying Brew's Blackout Combo functionalities have been swapped. Pretty strong change imo.

[whatisxml]

I was really curious about how good mastery is for average mitigation and haven't seen it done elsewhere so I decided to calculate the effective dodge chance a given mastery percent will give you (over a long enough time for rng to average out). By effective dodge chance I just mean NumDodgedAttacks / NumTotalAttacks. Here's the theoretical results which I found a bit surprising:

Image here: imgur.com/bFevWoY.png ... could someone else insert the picture in a reply? I don't have enough forum posts to do it.

My takeaways:

• even as low as 10% mastery you effectively have 25% dodge chance which is already half the dodge chance you'd get with 100% mastery
• each extra point of mastery is worth less than the last point, e.g. going from 5% to 15% mastery nets you 10% mitigation but going from 50% to 60% gets you less than 5% mitigation
• there are some very minor breakpoints at 25%, 33%, and 50% mastery which are caused by the fact that those go into 100% nicely. For instance, 50% mastery will get you 100% dodge after being hit twice in a row. Compare that to 51% mastery where you still need to take two hits to get the 100% dodge chance. So those extra few points above 50% are doing less relative to the points below 50%.
• above 50% mastery the curve is linear because you can't get more than 2 stacks (100% dodge) so it's effectively stacking dodge chance at that point

It does look like haste will be a more worthwhile stat. We've got 8% base mastery so any mastery on top of that will probably get us to a high enough effective dodge chance.

Thoughts?

EDIT: quick caveat...these calculations were done assuming 0% base dodge chance. Base dodge chance would devalue mastery even more

[Valkaneer]

Haste defensively will be your best stat.

I this due to CD reduction and more Kegs and Tigers to lower Brew CD's?

[stross01]

According to a blue post, this is working as intended >.>

Also, do we have an idea if haste > mastery right now? I'd imagine they change depending on which of the new level 100 talents you choose.

After playing pretty extensively in every area available on the beta, I've found mastery to be far better than haste. As far as high mythics go, avoiding the hit is better than trying to fix it after it occurs. Avoiding a quad-bolstered elite feels pretty good. Avoiding an attack that would apply a mortal strike feels pretty good.

However, haste is going to be the best under mastery. Crit is, again, the standby for meter scumlords.

- - - Updated - - -

I was really curious about how good mastery is for average mitigation and haven't seen it done elsewhere so I decided to calculate the effective dodge chance a given mastery percent will give you (over a long enough time for rng to average out). By effective dodge chance I just mean NumDodgedAttacks / NumTotalAttacks. Here's the theoretical results which I found a bit surprising:

Image here: imgur.com/bFevWoY.png ... could someone else insert the picture in a reply? I don't have enough forum posts to do it.

My takeaways:

• even as low as 10% mastery you effectively have 25% dodge chance which is already half the dodge chance you'd get with 100% mastery
• each extra point of mastery is worth less than the last point, e.g. going from 5% to 15% mastery nets you 10% mitigation but going from 50% to 60% gets you less than 5% mitigation
• there are some very minor breakpoints at 25%, 33%, and 50% mastery which are caused by the fact that those go into 100% nicely. For instance, 50% mastery will get you 100% dodge after being hit twice in a row. Compare that to 51% mastery where you still need to take two hits to get the 100% dodge chance. So those extra few points above 50% are doing less relative to the points below 50%.
• above 50% mastery the curve is linear because you can't get more than 2 stacks (100% dodge) so it's effectively stacking dodge chance at that point

It does look like haste will be a more worthwhile stat. We've got 8% base mastery so any mastery on top of that will probably get us to a high enough effective dodge chance.

Thoughts?

EDIT: quick caveat...these calculations were done assuming 0% base dodge chance. Base dodge chance would devalue mastery even more

This looks like it only assumes you'll dodge when you reach 100%.

In the mythic testing I did, with 40% mastery I never reached 3 stacks of Elusive Brawler. I reached 2 stacks 40 times out of a total 156.

[whatisxml]

After playing pretty extensively in every area available on the beta, I've found mastery to be far better than haste. As far as high mythics go, avoiding the hit is better than trying to fix it after it occurs. Avoiding a quad-bolstered elite feels pretty good. Avoiding an attack that would apply a mortal strike feels pretty good.

However, haste is going to be the best under mastery. Crit is, again, the standby for meter scumlords.

- - - Updated - - -



This looks like it only assumes you'll dodge when you reach 100%.

In the mythic testing I did, with 40% mastery I never reached 3 stacks of Elusive Brawler. I reached 2 stacks 40 times out of a total 156.

Nope was just going on expected value. Should take into account the dodge chance on each swing. For example let's look at 40% mastery:

• Attack 1: 0 stacks -- 0% chance to dodge
• Attack 2: 1 stacks -- 40% chance to dodge -- 100% chance you reached 1 stack -- effective dodge = 50% if you dodge this attack
• Attack 3: 2 stacks -- 80% chance to dodge -- 60% chance you reached 2 stacks -- effective dodge = 33% if you dodge this attack
• Attack 4: 3 stacks -- 100% chance to dodge -- 12% chance you reached 3 stacks -- effective dodge = 25% if you dodge this attack

So the expected dodge value is the effective dodge if you were to dodge at each stack times the chance you reached that stack times the chance you dodge that attack. We multiply our columns across and sum them.

EffectiveDodge = 0 + 0.4*1.00*0.5 + 0.8*0.6*0.33 + 1.00*0.12*0.25
EffectiveDodge = 38.8%

It's definitely still possible I'm messing this calculation up somewhere but all the sanity checks I've done make me a little more confident in it.

[keqe]

The Blackout Combo switch is kind of nice. Now empowered Ironskin Brew does its purpose very well. Giving 75% total stagger and not taking the stagger DoT damage for 3 seconds freezes your health quite well if needed.

[arcuro]

The Blackout Combo switch is kind of nice. Now empowered Ironskin Brew does its purpose very well. Giving 75% total stagger and not taking the stagger DoT damage for 3 seconds freezes your health quite well if needed.

cant wait to finally play legion
Blackout-COmbi with the Legiondary that resets BoF if KS is used together with this changes and the Trait that BoF reduces damage done by the mobs.
could lead to some interesting interactions and gameplay once the KS-Debuff is on the mobs. nice synergies between BoS, IsB, KS and BoF with resets end def values.

i start to like how it reads in my little mind

BoC with KS and IsB
BF after every KS

[Deleted]

Im not really good in mathing it out by myself but isn't it possible again to maintain IBS nearly 100% with the new BoS Talent + Lights Brewing/Black Ox Brew + an average haste level + artifact traits?

[Xequecal]

Im not really good in mathing it out by myself but isn't it possible again to maintain IBS nearly 100% with the new BoS Talent + Lights Brewing/Black Ox Brew + an average haste level + artifact traits?

Light Brewing is absolutely terrible. Why generate a little over one extra charge per minute when Black Ox Brew will give you three every 45 seconds?

[Deleted]

Light Brewing is absolutely terrible. Why generate a little over one extra charge per minute when Black Ox Brew will give you three every 45 seconds?

The question was not which talent is the better one beside that your numbers are wrong since Blackox Brew has a 1.5min cooldown and not 45s. The question was if its possible again to maintain IBS with one of these talents + haste + BoC etc, and if yes, how many charges are left for purify. Im pretty sure someone here is able to math it out

[Xequecal]

The question was not which talent is the better one beside that your numbers are wrong since Blackox Brew has a 1.5min cooldown and not 45s. The question was if its possible again to maintain IBS with one of these talents + haste + BoC etc, and if yes, how many charges are left for purify. Im pretty sure someone here is able to math it out

1 minute of Keg Smashing every 8 seconds cuts 30 seconds off the cooldown. Any Tiger Palms you get in during that time simply reduce the cooldown further. Light Brewing is completely worthless and should never be taken.

[Leblue]

1 minute of Keg Smashing every 8 seconds cuts 30 seconds off the cooldown. Any Tiger Palms you get in during that time simply reduce the cooldown further. Light Brewing is completely worthless and should never be taken.

If you're trying to get every little bit of you character Black Ox Brew will be the best talent assuming you play optimally and have the ability to play optimally. If someone wants to focus on extra brew generation but isn't capable of playing Black Ox Brew or is even fine with a bit less overall generation in exchange for not having to pay attention to another cooldown or even playing perfectly then Light Brewing is a fine choice. It falls nicely into the "passive if you don't want to add anything to really think about" slot of the talent row.

Also yes, Black Ox Brew is reduced by Keg Smash and Tiger Palm as well so the 1:30 cd is only if you use it and afk. It'll be lower depending on how well you play.

[keqe]

Have been doing a bit of the normal Darkbrough. Black Ox brew combined with tank swaps makes you have Ironskin brew at 30s+ duration and you just purify like live almost.

Seems quite ridiculous

[Deleted]

Have been doing a bit of the normal Darkbrough. Black Ox brew combined with tank swaps makes you have Ironskin brew at 30s+ duration and you just purify like live almost.

Seems quite ridiculous

Which 100er Talent? Do you have logs?

[keqe]

Which 100er Talent? Do you have logs?

https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports/PgAkfhWHXwx7KvyZ

I played like shit and wasted tons of brews. I played with blackout combo. I have 3+1 on the breath of fire trait so thought having 9s CD on it could be strong. But with the amount of brews available the other 2 talents could be much stronger.