[LEGION] Windwalker Discussion

[Arthael]

ya Chi Orbit is still in. SEF might not change but it just might be tuned out of, in favor of Serenity.

Also is it just me or is the set bonus 4p the most boring thing ever, like it was just thrown there as another stat stick cause they couldn't think of something more unique/interesting?

[Shoeboots]

Chi Orbit is definitely still in and it's making our class hall ugly as sin with everyone making giant swirlies everywhere...

I hadn't considered Serenity with SCK now that it's a spender. That really opens up some possibilities.... I wonder how many stacks you'd need on SCK before a Serenity SCK spamfest out damages FoF...

All that being said, I've mainly been using Whirling Dragon Punch. It hits like a truck and between WDP, RSK, FoF, and the artifact ability, I only have to use BoK about half the time for spending. I'm eager to see if sims rate it as a competitive choice cause it's definitely fun to use.

I suppose if I took serenity I'd wanna take RJW if possible to keep an extra button in my rotation. Otherwise its just too much BoK and gets boring.

[Weriik]

I've posted this opinion in the WW monk feedback threads on the official forums with no response multiple times, so I'm curious as to what other monks think of how Serenity outright replaces SEF.

How I see it is that Serenity should be it's own CD and the % damage stripped off the spell. I think having free ability casts and lowered timers on other spells is a strong enough CD as it is and they could adjust the duration and cooldown of Serenity based around that. I think that Serenity is just too different of an ability from SEF to outright replace it, the only thing in common being the % increased damage but that just seems tacked on to Serenity so it can replace SEF.

The two abilities themselves don't even behave similarly, while both are DPS cooldowns I feel like SEF is an iconic ability of the spec and also gives a bit of more freedom over Serenity with the option to cleave. You can tab target spam with Serenity active of course, but it doesn't have the same feeling as splitting into 3 and jumping around hitting everything in the fight.

I love the idea of Serenity being a faster gameplay CD, but I just wish they would strip the % damage increase off of it and not have it replace SEF just for the sake of doing so while adjusting it to be on the same level as the other T100 talents.

[Lucrece]

I've posted this opinion in the WW monk feedback threads on the official forums with no response multiple times, so I'm curious as to what other monks think of how Serenity outright replaces SEF.

How I see it is that Serenity should be it's own CD and the % damage stripped off the spell. I think having free ability casts and lowered timers on other spells is a strong enough CD as it is and they could adjust the duration and cooldown of Serenity based around that. I think that Serenity is just too different of an ability from SEF to outright replace it, the only thing in common being the % increased damage but that just seems tacked on to Serenity so it can replace SEF.

The two abilities themselves don't even behave similarly, while both are DPS cooldowns I feel like SEF is an iconic ability of the spec and also gives a bit of more freedom over Serenity with the option to cleave. You can tab target spam with Serenity active of course, but it doesn't have the same feeling as splitting into 3 and jumping around hitting everything in the fight.

I love the idea of Serenity being a faster gameplay CD, but I just wish they would strip the % damage increase off of it and not have it replace SEF just for the sake of doing so while adjusting it to be on the same level as the other T100 talents.

That's actually a cool idea for serenity, but they'd either have to significantly reduce its cd or buff its duration if they removed the damage boost. It's already weak in the state it's in.
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I'm also surprised at what little feedback there has been on our artifact traits, considering the really bad ones we have besides the garbage Light on Your Feet.

15% damage to Tiger Palm is useless, as Tiger Palm does no damage. The one for BoK isn't that great either.

The 30% heal on transcendence is terrible and counterproductive to the design of the ability.

Death Art is a complete waste of a talent. It's basically a consolation price for badly using Touch of Death. If you don't mis-time your Touch of Death, this trait will never do anything for you.

Strength of Xuen is terrible. I don't want more combo strike procs for Blackout Kick, it's terrible interplay with our mastery as we're not a spam spec.

Strike of the Windlord should increase our movement speed by 70% for 8-10 seconds instead of being a useless snare that we already have Disable for.

[Arthael]

I hadn't considered Serenity with SCK now that it's a spender. That really opens up some possibilities.... I wonder how many stacks you'd need on SCK before a Serenity SCK spamfest out damages FoF...

It does 400% increased by 50% per stack over 1.5s, while FoF does 2500% over 4s (upped by Crosswinds of 800 AP & 50% from Transfer of Power)
So FoF in theory will do 4,550% every 4s, or 1706.25% AP per stack over 1.5s.
This means you need a multiplier of 4.26 on SCK, that is ~ 7 stacks --- not feasible.

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The benefit of Serenity, I think, is that you can fit two Fists of Fury in one Serenity with 30% haste. While this can only happen in SEF once at the start (cause of two charges of SEF) but every subsequent SEF charge, you will only get one Fist within the time frame.
So in theory that will be 150% of FoF value for SEF or 2*100%*1.4 = 280% FoF value for Serenity. There is also the addendum that you'd net two FoF with 12s CD with Serenity (since you'll use the 2nd one within the Serenity window), so once you exit Serenity - you'll still get a faster FoF than you would with SEF (still incurring 24s CD)

In a five minute fight, that'd net 4 iterations of SeF FoF (3 + 1 since you get 2 charges at the start) or 3 iterations of Serenity FoF; in other words, 600% FoF or 840% FoF (and the difference is pretty giant).

The reduction in CD also affects strike of the windlord, again in theory netting you more applications of SotW in a fight than SEF would. You use SotW inside the Serenity frame, it incurs a 20s CD, that is every 1.5m you can cast two SotWs within the same window as you could cast SotW in one window (SEF).

So again, in a 5 minute window, you'd get 7.5 iterations of SotW for SEF v. 10.5 iterations of SotW with Serenity.

So we are practically comparing (150%)*[Increase multipliers]*[Combo Strikes value] value on all abilities used within the time frame of SEF versus
100%*[1.4+Increase Multipliers]*[Combo Strikes Value] in addition to casting more FoFs and SotWs for Serenity.

The big issue why Serenity will fall off (if it isn't already there) is due to the legendary adding .6s per Chi spent to SEF but not to Serenity, and the damage value of SEF scales much better since the 150% (50 each * 3) is baseline rather than Serenity having the 40% as an increase bonus (not even a more bonus

[Shoeboots]

It does 400% increased by 50% per stack over 1.5s, while FoF does 2500% over 4s (upped by Crosswinds of 800 AP & 50% from Transfer of Power)
So FoF in theory will do 4,550% every 4s, or 1706.25% AP per stack over 1.5s.
This means you need a multiplier of 4.26 on SCK, that is ~ 7 stacks --- not feasible.

---

The benefit of Serenity, I think, is that you can fit two Fists of Fury in one Serenity with 30% haste. While this can only happen in SEF once at the start (cause of two charges of SEF) but every subsequent SEF charge, you will only get one Fist within the time frame.
So in theory that will be 150% of FoF value for SEF or 2*100%*1.4 = 280% FoF value for Serenity. There is also the addendum that you'd net two FoF with 12s CD with Serenity (since you'll use the 2nd one within the Serenity window), so once you exit Serenity - you'll still get a faster FoF than you would with SEF (still incurring 24s CD)

In a five minute fight, that'd net 4 iterations of SeF FoF (3 + 1 since you get 2 charges at the start) or 3 iterations of Serenity FoF; in other words, 600% FoF or 840% FoF (and the difference is pretty giant).

The reduction in CD also affects strike of the windlord, again in theory netting you more applications of SotW in a fight than SEF would. You use SotW inside the Serenity frame, it incurs a 20s CD, that is every 1.5m you can cast two SotWs within the same window as you could cast SotW in one window (SEF).

So again, in a 5 minute window, you'd get 7.5 iterations of SotW for SEF v. 10.5 iterations of SotW with Serenity.

So we are practically comparing (150%)*[Increase multipliers]*[Combo Strikes value] value on all abilities used within the time frame of SEF versus
100%*[1.4+Increase Multipliers]*[Combo Strikes Value] in addition to casting more FoFs and SotWs for Serenity.

The big issue why Serenity will fall off (if it isn't already there) is due to the legendary adding .6s per Chi spent to SEF but not to Serenity, and the damage value of SEF scales much better since the 150% (50 each * 3) is baseline rather than Serenity having the 40% as an increase bonus (not even a more bonus

I'll take you at your word since I'm terrible at math. I guess I'm thinking in terms of bursting down a large pack of mobs with SEF since SCK stacks only have to be built once per 15 seconds and you can potentially fit a few SCKs in during the time it would take to channel one FoF.

Either way, this stuff gets me excited as the spec isn't as simple and dumbed down as I initially thought. I still wish they would let us have WoD version of SEF back as it's my favourite ability of all time, but at least there's something to work with here. If they got rid of the tab targeting requirements for SCK and kept stun as baseline for FoF, I think it would be totally viable and I would consider staying with WW Monk as my main in Legion.

[Arthael]

Ya SEF + SCK is going to be pretty amazing with AoE, esp if you take Ascension and you chain Fists on that right after.

Another question, is it just me or is Crosswinds not affected by SEF? As in, you only get set of flying things going off.
It still does 800% AP damage, but it is only doing 100% of the damage rather than 150% that you should theoretically get during SEF.

[Rawfury]

so what's the consensus on the Hit combo talent for the people that have played in the beta. I was thinking itd be awesome with the mastery in legion stacked up versus having the tiger pet cd.

[Babylonius]

so what's the consensus on the Hit combo talent for the people that have played in the beta. I was thinking itd be awesome with the mastery in legion stacked up versus having the tiger pet cd.

Its fun to use but thus far in my sims it hasn't been worth it.

[Arthael]

Its fun to use but thus far in my sims it hasn't been worth it.

Is it RJW or Xuen atm that's coming out ahead?

Actually, Eye of the Tiger and Crosswinds do not proc with SEF but still get damage reduction? Is that a gating mechanism for Serenity to be on par?

[Lucrece]

No, just mere oversight. Mechanisms that don't get copied by SEF are supposed to just receive a net damage bonus % that the spirits basically give you in total.

Also, I far prefer RJW to Xuen, as it not only makes for great sustained AoE but gives you yet another ability to keep mastery rolling and relieve the stress from those shitty combo breaker procs to dump your chi on.

[Arthael]

Well not sure if its oversight or not, but Serenity snapshots CD.

So if you have 20% haste and use FoF with Serenity, you can start another FoF at the end of serenity (that will continue on after serenity ends). While the damage bonus does not carry over, the reduced CD (of 10s, since its 20s with 20% haste) does. So in effect you get 3 FoFs off in the span of 2.
Same with Strike of the Windlord, so 3 SotWs in the span of 2.

If you can get 37.5% haste, you'll manage to get 2 FoFs inside Serenity + the CD on the next FoF reduced as well. But I don't think stacking haste to that level is feasible with this tier (or really viable, since you'll give up so much mastery).

Touch of Death
Serenity + FoF
Rising Sun Kick
Strike of the Windlord
Spinning Crane Kick
Rising Sun Kick
Spinning Crane Kick
Fists of Fury (you'll basically hit the button and serenity will end, but the CD snapshots)

More haste = everything will get squished and more % of FoF will get buffed by Serenity (until you hit 37.5%).
For multi-target, you'd do the same just hit different targets with Rising Sun Kick.

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If anyone is in touch with devs or the beta forums where the devs actually listen, can someone ask how the legendary that benefits SEF will function with serenity? If it doesn't, serenity won't work (or even be remotely competitive).

[Lucrece]

Is Chi Orbit still in Legion Beta? Because that's amazing if it still is.

I see no point why they would remove it. I like it, more so than that hideous WDP animation and while I'd love the idea of Serenity, it kills any ranged cleave by replacing SEF.

WW monk didn't get much in visual flair outside Chi Orbit and FoF animation update.

Our artifacts look like utter garbage, 5 man dungeon drops at best,

The Throne of Thunder fists weapons off Council fight have far more detail and spell effects than any of our artifact forms.

So I at least welcome Chi Orbit to feel like I've got something new to stare at instead of the same old.

[Notter]

In regards to spec legendaries
Let's ignore for a second that we probably won't even get all of them.

What do you reckon will be more viable:
A legendary that increases your DPS, like Drinking Horn Cover and Hidden Master's Forbidden Touch
or a raid utility like March of the Legion?

I'm not asking what's better. of course the DPS is a DPS increase.
but i'm asking what in your opinions, will be used.

[Lucrece]

Probably the DPS ones. A 15% boost to windwalking is inconsequential as most classes are beyond well equipped to deal with mobility without the help of windwalking.

[Hinalover]

In regards to spec legendaries
Let's ignore for a second that we probably won't even get all of them.

What do you reckon will be more viable:
A legendary that increases your DPS, like Drinking Horn Cover and Hidden Master's Forbidden Touch
or a raid utility like March of the Legion?

I'm not asking what's better. of course the DPS is a DPS increase.
but i'm asking what in your opinions, will be used.

Hidden Master's Forbidden Touch when i tested it, could only be used on a target that does not have Touch of Death. So that would most likely be useful in cleave situations. Drinking Horn Cover would be a good all-around item to have.

[Creatinebrah]

do you guys feel as if some legionaries are just outright MUCH more powerful than others? the mage one where they get two bloodlusts seem much stronger than any of the WW ones (other specs as well)

[Rawfury]

Well after playing on the PTR (the prepatch) i can honestly say its hard to go back to playing WoD Live. I had a blast with the simplified rotation i suppose. I do wish there was more of a meaningful 'burst' button though(i went with hit combo over xuen). I do like chi orbit ALOT even though i have Whirling dragon punch as my 100 talent. I do miss tigerbrew if only it was like a 25% damage increase on a 1-2min cd(without the stacks). Feelsbadman.

PREPATCH PLS COME ;_; I feel confident now that ill be staying WW monk unless some drastic balance change happens that messes up the gameplay style. I thought about enhancement but the playstyle is clunky and there far too many important buttons to press(im thinking too much about what to hit and what not to hit and that im losing dps)

[Babylonius]

I just finished testing artifact stuff with AMR, legendaries are next on my list for formal testing. I do have a tentative write up about the legendaries on my site already.

[Lucrece]

Ay, how cute, I love the Xuen header it looks great ;3