[LEGION] Windwalker Discussion

[Deleted]

Yes, right now it looks like you drop everything except FoF and RJW in favor of SCK, at 6 targets you drop RJW. That is assuming 6 targets and 6 stacks of the buff.

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The legendaries are on my site and Wowhead. Blizz hasn't said anything about how they will effect Mythic raiding, I hope they will be disabled, at least for a long time, but that is unlikely.

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Mod note: let's keep this thread of insulting others, even Blizzard employees. Keep discussion constructive. If you want to just rant,bothered a thread for that.

"The team decided to allow legendary items from the start of raid progression because WoW is a RPG and the power you get from items should matter. The team wants to let you use the items you have when possible."

From Q&A with Ion a week ago or so. So we will, unfortunately imo, be able to use 'em from the get-go.

[HHHGame78]

The Dodge passive trait is clearly the worst of the artifact tree.

[Deleted]

"The team decided to allow legendary items from the start of raid progression because WoW is a RPG and the power you get from items should matter. The team wants to let you use the items you have when possible."

From Q&A with Ion a week ago or so. So we will, unfortunately imo, be able to use 'em from the get-go.

And they are still a random drop?

EDIT: ok, just read this on wowhead

UPDATE - As per the latest information, Legion legendaries WILL BE allowed in all raid situations, INCLUDING Mythic difficulty. The previously noted "suppression aura" in Mythic will not be implemented. (Source: Legion Summit Dev Interview,

wow, ok, looks like I am not coming back in Legion afterall

[Creatinebrah]

There was plenty of feedback already regarding the uselessness of this trait from many people(myself included), they just don't really care or maybe don't agree.

And considering you are going to get the artifact tree filled up eventually... it actually does matter when we have terribad things there(and we sure have a TON of crap traits there, I hope at least on that we can agree?)

Feedback on WW in general seems to be mostly ignored, they have a really firm idea of what they want the spec to look like, and they ain't gonna stray from it due to the pitiful ramblings of us mortals

hit it spot on. i think they're too full of themselves to take advice from people who don't get paid to balance the game.

[Deleted]

hit it spot on. i think they're too full of themselves to take advice from people who don't get paid to balance the game.

I don't think this is neceserlly right. Out of all the classes, I think windwalkers have the most calm and reasonable community out there. Nobody here is threatening blizzard lives over twitter for removal of certain abilities, or crying "nerfed again" on the forums. And Celestion even tried to negotiate with us at some point, even if the only thing we got out of it was the change of SEF.
I just think they had certain times budget to spend on WW and they already used it all. And they couldn't care less right now, because, you know, windwalkers being the least played spec in the game. I think they spend twice as much time on first aid, then on WW.

EDIT: Also, the dodge trait (along with many others, like the ToD traits) were pointed out to blizz a long time ago, along with some traits, that eventually got replaced or reworked. Also, all the defensive traits on all other artifact weapons got reworked meanwhile, except windwalkers. I think blizz knows about this, and just opts not to do anything.

[Ryuutora]

I don't think this is neceserlly right. Out of all the classes, I think windwalkers have the most calm and reasonable community out there. Nobody here is threatening blizzard lives over twitter for removal of certain abilities, or crying "nerfed again" on the forums. And Celestion even tried to negotiate with us at some point, even if the only thing we got out of it was the change of SEF.
I just think they had certain times budget to spend on WW and they already used it all. And they couldn't care less right now, because, you know, windwalkers being the least played spec in the game. I think they spend twice as much time on first aid, then on WW.

EDIT: Also, the dodge trait (along with many others, like the ToD traits) were pointed out to blizz a long time ago, along with some traits, that eventually got replaced or reworked. Also, all the defensive traits on all other artifact weapons got reworked meanwhile, except windwalkers. I think blizz knows about this, and just opts not to do anything.

I don't think it was a budget thing but rather their intentions for the spec which is they didn't really intend to change much in the first place.

Similar to Brewmasters, here we focused on getting more depth out of less complexity. Windwalkers’ new Mastery, Combo Strikes, encourages mixing a variety of abilities, which provides a constant gameplay hook that influences every ability they use and draws inspiration from classic fighting games. In addition, we’ve polished Storm, Earth, and Fire to remove some cumbersome mechanics. Windwalkers still use a combination of Energy and Chi, along with a heavy dose of short cooldowns.

http://us.battle.net/wow/en/blog/199...onk-11-11-2015

Their goals were, and are, pretty clear. Buffs/Debuffs, SEF, and Tigereye Brew were the most complex things - those things were changed, or removed, and they've ensured that things stay simple.
-SEF Toggle still going to be misused? SEF is becomes the main dps cooldown, acceptable for Single Target usage.
-Buffs and debuffs have no place in a system where the abilities are always going to be used [insert Combo Strikes].
-Healing Elixirs doesn't meet it's 18 sec condition without TEB? Healing Elixirs changed.
-TEB Legendary inconsistent because TEB no longer exists? Power changed, name and flavor text still ties to TEB.

The real question is going to be: Was it enough?

[Imbalanced]

I wish they would replace either the dodge passive of the ToD passive with one that improves the radius of windwalking

[Xelran]

Can someone please tell me what currently best talents for ST are? (Pre patch)

[Babylonius]

Can someone please tell me what currently best talents for ST are? (Pre patch)

No one can for sure. Right now EE, RJW and Chi Orbit are the top both in sims and in practice. I will start posting my theorycrafting to my site and Chi Burst after this week.

[Fawkess]

Preach posted his video on the windwalker monk

[Conjugate]

Preach posted his video on the windwalker monk

Shows exactly what Blizzard's new design was going for... the spec looks very good and exciting to people that don't really understand the technicalities(and don't get me wrong, I don't blame the dude who made the video, as I assume he's reviewing ALL specs, he can't go in-depth into all of them..), but for people that actually play the spec seriously... well let's just I didn't exactly agree with most of his arguments(opinions are opinions and you are allowed to have them if you really want, even when they concern the viability of power strikes^^).

Another thing that might have inspired this super-positive review is that it seems like his testing was mostly of world content and dungeons, where WW actually plays very well... things look VERY different in raids, and I'm not talking about numbers tuning, but about our ability to deal with different situations, which is laughable.

[Babylonius]

I agree with much of what he said, but its well known that I am incredibly positive about WW in Legion. Its clear he isn't in the camp of some of the established WW that aren't a fan of the changes. However, its a good indication of how a new player will view the spec, which I think was the utmost important thing for WW in Legion.

It was nice to watch a Preach video that I didnt fervently disagree with or feel like he had no idea what he was saying. Its clear he has done no actual theorycrafting on the spec so his talent recommendations or how he uses them aren't very good, but overall he did a nice job.

[Conjugate]

Can't you notice that he's exaggerating EXACTLY the "fake complications" which might seem exciting, cool, KUNGFU MASTAH!!, or however you want to phrase it for beginners, but have no actual gameplay implications or extremely small ones? the hilarious song of praise to the NEW FASCINATING MASTERY in the beginning of the video is a prime example of that, with many other similar mentions throughout the video(which I am not going to analyse frame by frame as much as my rant-loving nature begs me to!).

In my opinion as someone who is aware that a LOT of the new things, while seeing that the spec is indeed cool(and that is great, WW is really, really cool! no joke here, spec has some impeccably rad refrigerator-level coolness you gotta admit^^), you should also be able to notice that there's no meat behind that coolness, an illusion of complication can't hold a spec, and the "variety" of our toolkit sums up to basically "ToD*+most versatile class at cheesing aoe", which is not exactly the most desirable factor when considering what few melees will get a spot in a raiding scene that is already extremely more ranged-friendly(but hey, at least we will rock mythic dungeons?).

*ToD is indeed powerful for adds that need to die fast, but it is countered by the far more problematic fact that WW's ability to focus damage on a target in a specific time frame is completely "delay-skills-centric"(and hence SUPER disruptive of your ongoing damage) makes it a very poor choice for progression raiding which tends to have chaotic circumstances. I feel an example might help clarify what I mean a bit because it sounds really cryptic.. imagine during Archimonde progress back when you had 3 doomfires in p1 you would have to play with Serenity(wasn't the case ofc, but with chiex removed with legion that aspect of our gameplay that had very high benefit to proper pooling and non-cd-oriented damage is gone), and make sure that on every doomfire spawn you could start with an rsk, and fit a fof in before it dies.. and now imagine that unlike archi where you had hundreds of attempts on later phases to perfect the "when to delay and when not to delay" on early phase you are facing against new and chaotic encounters.. do you really wanna take 50 attempts of being useless before you can sorta-maybe pull your weight? well, you see where this is going

[Deleted]

Can't you notice that he's exaggerating EXACTLY the "fake complications" which might seem exciting, cool, KUNGFU MASTAH!!, or however you want to phrase it for beginners, but have no actual gameplay implications or extremely small ones? the hilarious song of praise to the NEW FASCINATING MASTERY in the beginning of the video is a prime example of that, with many other similar mentions throughout the video(which I am not going to analyse frame by frame as much as my rant-loving nature begs me to!).

Yeah, beacause he knows nothing about WW. He haven't played WW in WoD, he released guide videos on all specs, except WW, because he didn't like it on launch and never bothered to play it, all his info on WW is second hand from other players.
And this is exactly what blizzard wanted about WW, to feel good and new to the players that never played WW beyond alting.

[Babylonius]

We've been at odds with our opinions for awhile Conjugate, I doubt that's going to change.

I think that WW will be very strong in Legion in raids once we get some balancing and idea on how to play it. The ability to AOE and cleave easily tends to be an asset and something that makes WW stand out now. What kept WoD WW back was the negative reputation of got earlier in the expansion and the fact that it was so difficult to balance compared to other classes.

What's most important to me is that the spec is easier for new players to pick up and understand with less damaging traps to get stuck in. At all levels and in most content, WW has the potential to be strong in the hands of most players.

[Ryuutora]

Preach posted his video on the windwalker monk

Bit of his likes and dislikes...acknowledgement of the flaws...knowledge of what the community has been saying...alot of selling; to be completely honest. What do I mean?

2:10 He talks about filler abilities having more of an impact when they're filler abilities...

"It's like being Bruce Lee in the back alley, punching and kicking" - Not sure about anyone else but I've always felt like that, and even more so with the random Rising Sun Kick popping off at the end of my attacks. That goes the same for SEF. SEF helps to serve that feeling of hitting more than one target? Why the change from a Toggle, which would fulfill the same purpose, and why the need to tab target, if Toggle SEF was hitting different targets? Feels better when you're alternating abilities than spamming while briefly mentioning the TP <-> BoK moments.

Chi and Energy management: They had already changed Energy in the WoD Beta to make it matter more as part of their Energy Philosophy, and we definitely felt that before T18, and with abilities like Chi Explosion or Serenity, Chi management has always been a thing i.e. using 3+ Chi in ST and 4+ for AoE (or TEB pooling) with Chi Explosion as well as gaming Combo Breaker proc's. Every spec goes through the thought processes of resource spending (especially specs like Spriests, Feral, and Unholy), same goes for Haste reducing CD's and Mastery increasing damage; it's not special to the spec.

Does seem to graze over talents until it gets to the more interesting ones. Any talks of Arcade Fighting immediately goes back to Kung Fu feel.

Now why does he go for Gale Burst rather than the other 2? The 2 most visual elite traits, while heavily stressing the Class Fantasy™ and knows what the community has been saying, but goes for the Soul Cap mechanic; even the comparison to the Colossus Smash windows he so much hates in WoD pointed out in the Arms video? Healing Winds lol.

I do think that the whole "try it as an alt" (21:42) was a poor choice of words.

[Ustabil]

Yeah, beacause he knows nothing about WW. He haven't played WW in WoD, he released guide videos on all specs, except WW, because he didn't like it on launch and never bothered to play it, all his info on WW is second hand from other players.
And this is exactly what blizzard wanted about WW, to feel good and new to the players that never played WW beyond alting.

True, i belive in blizzards eyes and most "non WW mains" the rework is a huge success. But im quite sure that a lot of the players who played the WW as main in WoD and MoP, was player who enjoyed a playstyle that had a little more to mannage and controll and let you be fully incharge of everything.

For those players who got used to the "complexity" of the WW now feels like the class has lost it charms. Its a decent class, does good numbers in the current content, and did fairly well in the raid testing i did, wasnt top dps but was able to do competive dmg with almost a freshly dinged 110 with almost no artifact traits. We have so much free cleave and will be very strong on AoE fights (wich mythic tends to have a lot of)

But it feels rather boring and i never have been able to play my WW for long before i relog and play some of the other more interesting melees.

[Lucrece]

Never took Preach Gaming's videos too seriously. He's a streaming personality, that's it.

With that said, I do think that unless they outright screw up our single target DPS, Windwalkers will be a perfectly competitive and desired spec.

We won't be rogues, that's for sure. Unfortunately, rogues and warriors have always been Blizzard's pet melee classes eclipsing all others.

They took all our defensives besides Karma, nerfed Diffuse magic, and we can't really cheese any mechanic like a rogue or DK can.

We don't have any worthwhile raid utility like Smoke Bomb or Grip.

But in terms of second tier melee, I think we'll be perfectly acceptable DPS even if we won't be as great to a raid as rogues/warriors.

Hopefully they'll finally realize they trimmed too many defensives from us, that Demon Hunter's Rush is basically a better version of Roll (they should reduce roll recharge at least by 5 seconds baseline), and that our heals are shit.

If we keep FoF stun baseline and they don't fuck us over with saying that was a bug, we'll actually be pretty neat for Mythic+ dungeons with a 20 sec cd aoe cone stun.

I really, really hope Death Art and Light on Your Feet get replaced, and the heal on transcendence gets removed and we gain Healing Elixirs baseline, a talent replacing Healing Elixir bumps the healing by 15%, and that the artifact trait makes it so when we pop healing elixir we receive 10% increased healing for 8 seconds.

Light on Your Feet should get replaced by Xuen's Perseverance, which reduces physical and magic damage by 2/3/5%.

Death Art should make it so the activation time of ToD gets reduced by 4 seconds max. Or a reduction of the cd up to 10%.

Strike of the Windlord should instead of a snare, provide a 50% armor ignore for 5 seconds.

Unfortunately I'm unable to post these suggestions in the beta forum.

[Creatinebrah]

Never took Preach Gaming's videos too seriously. He's a streaming personality, that's it.

With that said, I do think that unless they outright screw up our single target DPS, Windwalkers will be a perfectly competitive and desired spec.

We won't be rogues, that's for sure. Unfortunately, rogues and warriors have always been Blizzard's pet melee classes eclipsing all others.

They took all our defensives besides Karma, nerfed Diffuse magic, and we can't really cheese any mechanic like a rogue or DK can.

We don't have any worthwhile raid utility like Smoke Bomb or Grip.

But in terms of second tier melee, I think we'll be perfectly acceptable DPS even if we won't be as great to a raid as rogues/warriors.

Hopefully they'll finally realize they trimmed too many defensives from us, that Demon Hunter's Rush is basically a better version of Roll (they should reduce roll recharge at least by 5 seconds baseline), and that our heals are shit.

If we keep FoF stun baseline and they don't fuck us over with saying that was a bug, we'll actually be pretty neat for Mythic+ dungeons with a 20 sec cd aoe cone stun.

I really, really hope Death Art and Light on Your Feet get replaced, and the heal on transcendence gets removed and we gain Healing Elixirs baseline, a talent replacing Healing Elixir bumps the healing by 15%, and that the artifact trait makes it so when we pop healing elixir we receive 10% increased healing for 8 seconds.

Light on Your Feet should get replaced by Xuen's Perseverance, which reduces physical and magic damage by 2/3/5%.

Death Art should make it so the activation time of ToD gets reduced by 4 seconds max. Or a reduction of the cd up to 10%.

Strike of the Windlord should instead of a snare, provide a 50% armor ignore for 5 seconds.

Unfortunately I'm unable to post these suggestions in the beta forum.

how do DK/rogues cheese mechanics?

[Lucrece]

how do DK/rogues cheese mechanics?

Like Mages do with Iceblock. With immunities. I remember Twin Ogronns and how DK's and rogues pretty much trivialized the fire, or how Hunters can do Xhul clearing alongside mages pretty easily.

And to whoever transferred my post over to beta forums, thanks a bunch <3