Getting into Mythic Raids as a Tank

[Krazzorx]

What I think makes it much harder as a tank is, it's normally the 1 role where you have to super reliable schedule wise. That can make a guild think long and hard about replacing an underperforming tank who however is reliable making raids.

[OrcinusDrake]

I'm officer and MT of a very casual 4/13M guild. We run a bunch of alts from top 10 oceanic guilds, and they provide a solid bulk to our group. Some of them join because they're main raid doesn't raid on our nights and are bored and some join because they're main raid has simply stopped. They're schedule suits us, so why not?
For a casual guild attitude trumps all. If you're cocky, disrespectful, make drama, or negatively affect the guild's reputation it doesn't matter if you double the performance of the next guy, you're out.
I got into my guild from the bottom when the guild was ~6/13N after 4 weeks, but that's not really an option for you. I think the best bet now would be to try and pug mythics, looking for "guild run"s. If they're LF a tank for the night, chances are they're also looking for a guild tank. An alternative would be to join a target guild as dps and find out how far down the tanking queue you are, if their tanks miss a night, would rather play a different role or burn out then that's your cue. Joining a guild, telling the guild their tanks suck and how much better you are is a short trip to the door and a bad reputation. This is in part because tanking is a role that attracts/generates officers, but mostly because guilds have a duty of loyalty to their raid members.

[Deleted]

Generally the reason that main tanks are not replaces very often, is the fact that it takes a certain kind of personality to be one.
I find that people recently looking to play this role fall short on simply because they do not understand.
Some of the points I found throughout my tanking experience(Illidan to Archimonde HFC, minus MoP)

Reliability: This one is quite obvious. A main tank has to be there every raid, and it is generally the reason why so many casual guilds fail, because they have different tanks for every boss and every try. In the guilds we have been in, we have 2 main tanks with 100% attendance, and then we have 1 dps that can play tank for things where 3 tanks make it easier, like Blast Furnace.

Consistency: Cooldown usage, Elevated movement, increased damage taken, and so forth. As a tank you have to worry about a ton more as dps. When do I take increased damage? Do i need a cd for a certain ability? Do I need to move the boss a bit? How is healers mana? Are healers stressed? These are just some of things going through my mind when tanking, so I can adjust my playstyle accordingly and most importantly, this does not show up in the ranks...

Knowing your class inside and out:
Unlike dps or healer, you normally have 2 sides of theory crafting. A dps one and a mitigation one. Knowing when to swap between doing max dps and tanking and back is a real art. It might not matter much on farm as you are just whoring for ranks, but when you are trying new tactics or something crazy (like solohealing archimonde), then you need to know what your class can take and how to adapt.



Finding a tank spot is normally hard, not because there is only 2 per guild, but also because when a guild finds a tank that might not be the best at their CDs, but has the other 2 points I made (It wouldn't really show on normal/hc), then they hold on to them and would just be happy with that because the 2 first points I made are much more important than the 3rd one. A great tank is really one that does not care what rank he gets on the boss, but instead does everything in his/her power making sure it is killed, and that is why alt tanks are rarely successful unless they fully commit.

TL : DR:

If you want a proper tank spot, show them you are serious, look for a guild on different servers as I am sure there will be one looking and make it your main. Be respectful and humble as in all new beginnings and just enjoy the most intense and fun way of WoW.

[ThePants999]

I can't really answer most of those questions publicly, but I can answer this one:

5. Is the concept of me being an alt a huge turnoff? I'm looking for their raid nights which arent on the same nights as my main's twice a week.

It's certainly not a plus point, but personally I've taken people on this basis on multiple occasions in the past, and it's never been a problem. I'm sufficiently confident in what my guild offers that I'm not concerned about the person's commitment to their "alt guild". Indeed, sometimes the person has so much fun with us that their "main" and "alt" change places :-)

[Deleted]

Realistically you're probably not aiming high enough. Guilds that are mid-mythic progression now are not built off a focus on player performance, as such approaching with the the intent of showing you're better than the other tanks, even if if that's outstandingly obvious from logs or other evidence, won't mean they'll simply swap you in for an existing player.

[Jotaux]

No guild is going to dump the tank that has been doing a decent job and has been with them throughout progression. Even if the tank is fucking up sometimes its a lot of risk to switch him out for an unknown tank with better performance. You are best off getting in as dps and waiting on a tank to drop so you can fill their spot. Offer to tank when one is away or 3 tanks are required. For Mythic gorefiend we needed our dk tank to go dps so we had to get a dps to fill in as a tank.

[Deleted]

There are more to tanking than just logs. Especially the KRSI logs should be taken with a doze of salt, as it depends on a lot of factors, which the tank might not be in control of.
Looking at a tanks log, searching for his use of AM and other cd's, gives you an idea of how he/she is performing. But remember that higher uptime of said cd does not mean that he is better. I prefer using a cd once where it really matters than using it two times where it does not matter.

If you truly want to see if a tank uses his cd's and AM correctly then go to a progress log, not some random Archi HC log. Find out why the raid wiped. Was it the tanks who died? What happend to them when they died? did a lot of players die to healable damage cause the tanks got too spiked down?


Logs aside. As a tank you need to play seemingly perfect each try. A dps can make several mistakes and not being called out for it. But when you as a tank makes a mistake, it often leads to a wipe. Logs is one think, but then there is things like positioning, communication and stability (not only in attendance but also in your playstyle).

[Astynax]

There are more to tanking than just logs. Especially the KRSI logs should be taken with a doze of salt, as it depends on a lot of factors, which the tank might not be in control of.

Agreed KRSI is skewed in many fights especially like the construct driver for soc who when tanking is always just taking reverb, gorefiend on the tank who is soaking souls (non mythic), iskar tank holding eye etc.

However I dont think a lot of people actually look at these during applications and review of their own tank's performance which is what I'd want to bring up. Otherwise they could see their tank getting 1 shot by reverb is the tank's fault rather than a healer who didnt use an external, or people who had slow deaths over 45 seconds shows under problems as that person screwing up avoidable damage yet the tank could have used active mitigaiton so heals could have gone to save them. The blame thus far has always been on DPS and healers, and very very very rarely is anything pointed at the tank when it should be

Talking to others and going through other apps the last while it seems like the RL or GM/officer is often in a tank spot too who are very unwelcoming to feedback or to have anyone say that theyre doing poorly, especially coming from a potential trial. Caught myself from doing that today looking through a 3/13M guild's logs from an app whose prot pally had on average 40% sacred shield uptime and 22-30% shield of the righteous (I really dont know what he would use HP on at that point...) then noticed he was the only rank 1 in the guild. GM recruiter was the other bear tank :/

[Zelendria]

Y'know if I were a recruiter and had some random dude not only apply but slagging off guildies I'd reject you on principle even if they were the worst tank in the world, and you were the best.

[Drish]

Realistically you're probably not aiming high enough. Guilds that are mid-mythic progression now are not built off a focus on player performance, as such approaching with the the intent of showing you're better than the other tanks, even if if that's outstandingly obvious from logs or other evidence, won't mean they'll simply swap you in for an existing player.

Quoting this for emphasis. If you're applying to midtier guilds, expect an attitude that isn't hard driven. The guilds you're looking at are only a few bosses in for 1 of 2 reasons. They either are extremely new (and would hopefully love you), or are not really that great skillwise. Whether this is because the attitude is super lax and they're all just unwinding, or there isn't a backbone and no ones saying "hey get better" and they're just saying "that didnt go as expected : ( ". Judging by your demeanor this isn't a group that you would be happy with.

I worked myself into a 2 day guild with an alt during the end of BRF and am currently an officer of said guild. If anyone was able to say "I looked at your logs and i'd like to compete for this spot" I'd take them (assuming they had a decent ring or were getting it soon, guess it might be a little less important for a healer or a tank as it is for a dps (not saying its not important)). A good officer/recruitment team will know when someone is trying to prove themselves rather than sound cocky. A mid tier guild is probably going to write you off as an asshat.

TL;DR think about the abilities/goals of a guild when applying. Different audiences have different standards.

To the person that said high dps rankings dont make a good tank, only the top percentile or two are trying to eek out damage. If you do your job right you'll usually end up in the purple range, which it sounds like you already know. GOOD LUCK SIR OR MADAM!

[Astynax]

Quoting this for emphasis. If you're applying to midtier guilds, expect an attitude that isn't hard driven. The guilds you're looking at are only a few bosses in for 1 of 2 reasons. They either are extremely new (and would hopefully love you), or are not really that great skillwise. Whether this is because the attitude is super lax and they're all just unwinding, or there isn't a backbone and no ones saying "hey get better" and they're just saying "that didnt go as expected : ( ". Judging by your demeanor this isn't a group that you would be happy with.

I worked myself into a 2 day guild with an alt during the end of BRF and am currently an officer of said guild. If anyone was able to say "I looked at your logs and i'd like to compete for this spot" I'd take them (assuming they had a decent ring or were getting it soon, guess it might be a little less important for a healer or a tank as it is for a dps (not saying its not important)). A good officer/recruitment team will know when someone is trying to prove themselves rather than sound cocky. A mid tier guild is probably going to write you off as an asshat.

TL;DR think about the abilities/goals of a guild when applying. Different audiences have different standards.

To the person that said high dps rankings dont make a good tank, only the top percentile or two are trying to eek out damage. If you do your job right you'll usually end up in the purple range, which it sounds like you already know. GOOD LUCK SIR OR MADAM!

I was thinking I'd do mid Mythic guilds since the spectrum right now is fresh heroic cleared where I wouldn't want to be there when there's the huge rude awakening for those who just step in to realize you it's not just heroic +numbers, and may not be cut for it, to deep 11to13/13 guilds where I'd be undergeared and just be another straight clearthrough/carried on my alt. Hoping to find people with high potential and help them through Mythic

It does stick me in the spot where serious mythic raiders are already near the end so the pickings left are those who aren't as serious, don't care, suck, or just got a late start. More hoping for the latter late start where the cross realm giving legit good people a late start.

Y'know if I were a recruiter and had some random dude not only apply but slagging off guildies I'd reject you on principle even if they were the worst tank in the world, and you were the best.

Really step back and think about this ^. If I was going to be like LMFAO YOU GUIS SUCK SO HARD, why would I apply? Obviously not going to totally rag on the people, but you don't think it's worth listening to someone who has feedback on people who are performing poorly so you'd rather just kick them and keep the bad?

"New guy says our warlock is 50% haunting spirits and poor dot uptime, tank eating double damage from not doing this, ret using wrong talents. Well fuck him" *kick*

That's a really great way to not improve and not recruit good people. Recruitment is a 2 way street. The person you're trying to recruit has to like your guild and the people they raid with and see that they have something to offer (the recruit is dedicating a lot their time to the guild), just like you have like to them and they have something to bring

[Zelendria]

Really step back and think about this ^. If I was going to be like LMFAO YOU GUIS SUCK SO HARD, why would I apply? Obviously not going to totally rag on the people, but you don't think it's worth listening to someone who has feedback on people who are performing poorly so you'd rather just kick them and keep the bad?

"New guy says our warlock is 50% haunting spirits and poor dot uptime, tank eating double damage from not doing this, ret using wrong talents. Well fuck him" *kick*

That's a really great way to not improve and not recruit good people. Recruitment is a 2 way street. The person you're trying to recruit has to like your guild and the people they raid with and see that they have something to offer (the recruit is dedicating a lot their time to the guild), just like you have like to them and they have something to bring

But no one has asked for your feedback though. What you're doing it imposing your opinion where it is potentially not wanted, and also without knowing the full picture as to why a particular raider is performing poorly.

[AgilityTank]

But no one has asked for your feedback though. What you're doing it imposing your opinion where it is potentially not wanted, and also without knowing the full picture as to why a particular raider is performing poorly.

Depends on how performance-based the guild is.

[Kanika]

Realistically you're probably not aiming high enough. Guilds that are mid-mythic progression now are not built off a focus on player performance, as such approaching with the the intent of showing you're better than the other tanks, even if if that's outstandingly obvious from logs or other evidence, won't mean they'll simply swap you in for an existing player.

I agree with this statement to be fair, and I meant to mention something similar in my first response. I think, as a lot of people have already said, a lot of the active mid-progress guilds aren't so likely to have the same cut-throat attitude as more competative guilds. There's likely to be a lot of established friendships and loyalties in the guild already - hence why I think you need to tread incredibly carefully with stuff like this.

I dont get the impression you're a douchebag from what i've read so far, and I understand where you're coming from, but I just thing first impressions really have an impact - especially in game as you may not really have another chance to change that - so just having that approach isnt all that likely to work out so well for you.

[Deleted]

It's worth noting that regardless of all the advice given here your best approach to finding a spot is to continue doing as you've done to date until you find someone willing to listen, then at least you've found a guild that's reciprocal to feedback and likely worth joining.

[Deleted]

Y'know if I were a recruiter and had some random dude not only apply but slagging off guildies I'd reject you on principle.

Same here. I've had my fair share of know-it-all tanks that thought they were god's gift to raiding and you sound exactly like one of those.

Even if you are indeed better, that mentality does not match my current guild's roster and players. I'd still prefer to play with the "inferior tank" that I know.
(for reference our guild raids 6h / week and at 9/13M atm)

[Shinjikage]

Actions speak louder then words, unless the guild you are applying to specifically says that they are open to recruiting people who think that they can do better then their current raider, then you really don't want to say anything about being better then their tank. You are trialing to prove yourself as a tank, not disprove their current raider whom a guild is progressing with. Go in, play your best and watch as your performance speaks for itself.

Now speaking as someone who trials and evaluates new tanks in his guild, I can give you a few tips as to what we look for.

1.) Compatibility- Tanking is fairly vocal job- whether you like it or not you have to interact a lot more with the raid then the other roles do, not to say it's more important, it's just far more visible. Your visible personality has to mesh with your cotank, as well as the rest of the raid. If you have a bad attitude (not saying that you do), then I'd drop you in an instant and find someone who meshes with my team better.

2.) Communication - This is fairly straightforward, are you able to call for cds and tell your raid a piece of information they need to know to get through the fight? Are you able to talk with your cotank and hash out details for specific encounters? A silent tank is a dead tank to me.

3.) Adaptable - How easily are you able to adapt to the current strats we have for bosses.

Notice I didn't put rotation etc, as a tank I fully expect someone to have their rotation down when applying to a mythic guild. On a random note, a ton of guilds are looking for tanks. I can't imagine it taking more then 1-2 days to get at least 10-15 bites from different guilds.

[Menox]

Replacing an existing tank is not a situation that raid leaders or tanks want to happen, as a tank you get in a rhythm with the other tank and you just rely on each other to handle certain mechanics a certain way, which in itself can skew your log rankings. When a new tank comes in it throws that old comfortable rhythm out and the fights tend to be quite a bit more hectic as you try to learn each others playstyles.

Regarding logs, when the bosses are dying no one really cares about tank rankings, and you cant get rankings without the bosses dying. I would just leave those out, trying to poach someones raid spot based on logs is not a great way to get anywhere, I made a post in the warrior forums not too long ago to get people's thoughts on KRSI and the general consensus was that its an unreliable at best way of gauging tank performance so I would not lean on logs to prove competency. Any decent tank will definitely take any log feedback regarding rotations and see if they can use that to improve their playstyle. It can also be a bit tough to bring in someone who has already killed the bosses you are progressing on because they may try to push a different strat that worked for their old guild but due to comp/playstyles it may not work for the new guild.

I would recommend posting in some forums and wait for guilds to approach you. In the meantime enjoy raiding on your main

[maddnesskhaz]

I was in a guild once where we replaced an MT with great reliability and attendance with a new superstar because the superstar performed better.

After 1 tier, the superstar decided to stop raiding.

That guild died.