The most boring aspects of Rogue (hopefully corrected in Legion)

[Packing an i5]

Poison Options

Current Options:

Lethal:Wound Poison/ Deadly Poison No option for using two lethals at the same time.

Non Lethal:Crippling Poison/ Leeching Poison

Very little choice of poisons in warlords this really bothers me and the new poison system overall implemented for Mists of Pandaria.

What we had before 5.0 in Cataclysm : Thrown weapons existed and could be poisoned. Deadly Throw and Fan of Knives Applied the thrown poison. You could use lethal or non lethal poisons aqquired from vendors on each of your weapons. You could swap weapons with different poisons on them.

and finally there were more poisons (Dispel Enrage poison, Mind Numbing Poison, Deadly and Instant Poison, Wound Poison)

The only Poison Flub in cata was blizzard decided at one point to reduce the effectiveness of wound poison down to 10% which was far too meager.

A major flub was made with Mop and WOD reducing the number of poisons available and barring us from using wound/wound or wound/deadly or wound/instant or deadly/instant. This really ticked me off. Instant poison is only available to combat and being forced to use Deadly Poison without wound or the absence of deadly brew really hurts Assassination Rogues.

Thankfully it Looks like Deadly brew and Mind numbing are making some kind of return for Assassination Rogues in Legion which makes sense because Assassination is Suppose to be the poison master spec but lost Deadly brew in Mop while a similar set bonus was doled out to all 3 specs in the form of a pvp set bonus.


Survivability Tier Options

Currently there is no plan in Legion to change this Tier. We are still stuck with Cheat Death, Leeching poison, and elusiveness.

I think this really sucks. Ive argued since 2012 that having it set up like this stinks. For PVE there is one good choice Cheat death which was nerfed for warlords and for pvp and general soloing the best choice is Feint which is arguably too strong if anything the only argument against that is that without feint the Rogue class would be Mush , that there is skill in its application and the duration is very short even when glyphed.

Leeching Poison always sucked and sucks even worse than before now that is not a healing poison but a leech effect. You cannot use crippling poison and leeching together so leeching is a No no for pvp except maybe vs Death Knights. Leeching Poison is not a fun talent. They need to up the leech by 20% or more or replace it entirely with a more competent talent.

My other beef is that Combat really needed an overhaul but it is getting one in Legion. Combat never really altered from a leather wearing warrior that spammed sinister strike and when SS got upped to 50 energy without awarding 2 points that really ticked me off. Combat is also entirely balanced around blade flurry and Killing Spree. I personally miss old blade flurry which was a 2 min cooldown and awarded temporary increased attack speed while hitting another target and had zero cost or penalties. I kind of detest its current state of being a sustained Mode with an energy penalty.

[Deleted]

Elusiveness is probably one of the most over-powered talents in the game, and that extends to PvE as well as PvP. If you don't think that Elusiveness is a good talent, you're just wrong. Cheat Death is arguably (only arguably) better on progression fights where mechanics are new. Once you're familiar with them and know when to use Feint, Elusiveness will always be better (especially with better players).

I have no idea how you think these issues you've highlighted will be fixed in Legion. Poisons are removed from Subtlety and Combat altogether, which is hardly extending the concept of choice. As for survivability, I don't really see an issue.

[Mookes]

I can see where you are coming from, but they didn't remove instant poison. Correct me if i'm wrong, but they worked it into deadly poison.

[shaunika123]

Elusiveness is probably one of the most over-powered talents in the game, and that extends to PvE as well as PvP. If you don't think that Elusiveness is a good talent, you're just wrong. Cheat Death is arguably (only arguably) better on progression fights where mechanics are new. Once you're familiar with them and know when to use Feint, Elusiveness will always be better (especially with better players).

I have no idea how you think these issues you've highlighted will be fixed in Legion. Poisons are removed from Subtlety and Combat altogether, which is hardly extending the concept of choice. As for survivability, I don't really see an issue.

but if you're no longer progressing why would you waste energy on feint?
bosses after progression are about logwhoring and cheat death is way better for that, you can cheese mechanics, and you dont need to spend energy.

[Boil]

Elusiveness is probably one of the most over-powered talents in the game, and that extends to PvE as well as PvP. If you don't think that Elusiveness is a good talent, you're just wrong. Cheat Death is arguably (only arguably) better on progression fights where mechanics are new. Once you're familiar with them and know when to use Feint, Elusiveness will always be better (especially with better players).

I have no idea how you think these issues you've highlighted will be fixed in Legion. Poisons are removed from Subtlety and Combat altogether, which is hardly extending the concept of choice. As for survivability, I don't really see an issue.

but if you're no longer progressing why would you waste energy on feint?
bosses after progression are about logwhoring and cheat death is way better for that, you can cheese mechanics, and you dont need to spend energy.

Falciparum never said to take Elusiveness after progression was done, they said to take it after one has gotten the mechanics of the fight down…

[KiwifruitOCE]

The only thing missing from the survivability tier is a third overpowered talent. Cheat death and elusiveness are both extremely strong at dealing with different PVE mechanics. Its the third talent that has always been lacking, leeching poison would have to be like, 30% lifesteal or something to feel as strong as either of them. The new talent for sub filling that third slot feels completely useless, although I'm sure its numbers will be tuned in time.

[shaunika123]

Falciparum never said to take Elusiveness after progression was done, they said to take it after one has gotten the mechanics of the fight down…

ah misread then, sorry my bad ^^

then again i was never a big fan of elusiveness either way
feint alone is enough for almost any mechanic, if its not i'll specifically respec, but i dont think ive even needed it in HFC (had to go elusiveness for blackhand in BRF that's the last time i had it)

[Ferg]

Backstab is being changed, sort of. That makes me happy.

[elfporn]

Backstab is being changed, sort of. That makes me happy.

Wat?! I must be missing something

[Skayaq]

Wat?! I must be missing something

You aren't, backstab isn't really changing unless you pick the gloomblade talent. They are adding indicators to show where you can backstab, but nothing about backstab changes.

[ticktock19]

You aren't, backstab isn't really changing unless you pick the gloomblade talent. They are adding indicators to show where you can backstab, but nothing about backstab changes.

Backstab can now be used from any direction, but deals 30% (on the class changes page, for now) increased damage if behind the target.

Directly from the preivew page:
"Stab the target, causing moderate Physical damage. Damage increased by 30% when behind your target. Awards 1 combo point."

[elfporn]

Backstab can now be used from any direction, but deals 30% (on the class changes page, for now) increased damage if behind the target.

Directly from the preivew page:
"Stab the target, causing moderate Physical damage. Damage increased by 30% when behind your target. Awards 1 combo point."

yea that i knew about. They reduced the damage backstab deals(160% in alpha), added a 30% dmg modifier for doing it from behind (which still doesn't bring backstab up to where it is now, or even where gloomblade is).

So in all, a nerfed backstab. I thought perhaps some new information had come to light. Wishing for a new alpha build to release! perhaps with sub and sin playable.

[Ferg]

yea that i knew about. They reduced the damage backstab deals(160% in alpha), added a 30% dmg modifier for doing it from behind (which still doesn't bring backstab up to where it is now, or even where gloomblade is).

So in all, a nerfed backstab. I thought perhaps some new information had come to light. Wishing for a new alpha build to release! perhaps with sub and sin playable.

It's not nerfed, it's rebalanced...arguably buffed, since it no longer has the positioning requirement. Fights like Gorefiend and Ultraxion say hello

[Mask]

It's not nerfed, it's rebalanced...arguably buffed, since it no longer has the positioning requirement. Fights like Gorefiend and Ultraxion say hello

No, fights like Gorefiend and Ultraxion say "spec assassination for this one, dumbass"

[xxf2dxx]

No, fights like Gorefiend and Ultraxion say "spec assassination for this one, dumbass"

But it's part of the fantasy of "BACKSTAB!" Isn't this fun and engaging and not retarded at all? Problem previously was that we had to do shit damage with hemo to make up for the fact we couldn't move behind the target. Now we just have a shitty version of backstab to merge that issue into one ability? Same problem, now we can just get taxed on damage because that backstab was kinda on the line between in front and behind instead of just cancelling the attack and giving an error message. Regardless of damage output, this is just a terrible design. However I will say I believe the 160% or whatever is just them doing some crapshot number before tuning.

[Willoughby]

It's not nerfed, it's rebalanced...arguably buffed, since it no longer has the positioning requirement. Fights like Gorefiend and Ultraxion say hello

It's hemo's damage penalty built into backstab. Only really a buff to soloing, really.

I'd argue that it's a nerf in group content since you could accidentally backstab from the front if your target gets moved quickly or some fight mechanic changes the target's facing, whereas on live you wouldn't be able to backstab at all and that'd alert you that you need to reposition, which gives you the choice of using hemo if you absolutely can't reposition fast enough to avoid energy capping or just repositioning before you energy cap and not losing out on damage at all.

There's nothing wrong with sub on Gorefiend by the way, as long as he's tanked correctly going into feast. Ultraxion wouldn't even be a problem today because 270 degree backstab.

[Ferg]

No, fights like Gorefiend and Ultraxion say "spec assassination for this one, dumbass"

So deal with using a shittier spec? I am glad you are not a game designer

[elfporn]

i agree with willoughby here.

Backstab is definitely nerfed and not just in numbers. btw it's 252% weapon damage on live.

While backstab's 160%+30% (physical, armor mitigated) and gloomblade's 210%(magical, unmitigated) might not be final numbers, the comparitive damage between them likely is.

What really needs to happen is backstab completely dropped in favor of gloomblade and a better talent put in place of it.

As things stand right now, shadowstrike is going to be the main builder, and bs/gb being fillers (though with anticipation+legendary gloves things might be different)

And i also agree that there's no situation where we're unable to actually use backstab, not since 270% came into effect.

The big deal is that the positional effect should not be there at all for a main rotational ability.
We have incentives to be behind already, penalties are not required.

I also feel this post is too long. /tldr

[jonjonz]

I think the most boring thing about playing my sin rogue, is those lulls where you have no energy and no combo points and you passively sit by while autoattacking.

Legions appears to include several increases to the generation of both energy and combo points, which will minimize this passive downtime.

[Deleted]

No, fights like Gorefiend and Ultraxion say "spec assassination for this one, dumbass"

Or maybe just say use your brains and talk with your tanks. It has been explained 100 times how to use bs on gorefriend. It's not even remotely a problem on this boss.
Ans ever since ultraxion, there has been no boss without possibility to backstab.
I bet 90% of rogues complaining about that one didn't played rogue on him or didn't played sub but anyway.
Seriously start talking with your tanks, they won't eat you just because you ask a little positioning.

- - - Updated - - -

As things stand right now, shadowstrike is going to be the main builder, and bs/gb being fillers (though with anticipation+legendary gloves things might be different)

Can't confirm with a tweet but I heard that maybe legendaries won't be usable in mm raids. That makes some sense too imo with the way we obtain them, but wait and see.