Ukraine's economy hits rock bottom.

[Ausr]

are you the putin trolls I keep hearing about ^^?

Guess if your number 1 trade partner stops trading with you, that is bad for your economy. So is fighting a war.
Not quite sure why you think that thats just the EUs fault, but hey. Guess you reflect your news a little less than I do mine (which is telling me that its all russias fault and the big shiny EU didnt do anything wrong^^)

Actually, if you listen to RT and Team Putin here, they'll tell you it was the CIA, Nazis and John McCain (don't ask) that started the whole thing.

Also funny that he links RT for proof when it's been shown to be very untrustworthy. Course, incoming "but...but Western media!!", which they'll say and ignore the higher trustworthiness of said media.

[Deleted]

Actually, if you listen to RT and Team Putin here, they'll tell you it was the CIA, Nazis and John McCain (don't ask) that started the whole thing.

http://nobsrussia.com/2015/06/01/beh...nes-of-maidan/

CIA HQ

Langley, VA

November 2013

Director Jennings: Well gentlemen, looks like we’ve got a new task. It seems like Ukrainian president Viktor Yanukovych has suspended talks on signing the European Union free trade agreement that he himself pressed for. We’re going to have to overthrow him as soon as possible.

Agent Johnson: Wait, why do we need to do that? All we know is that he’s suspended the talks. We can’t be sure that he’s going to totally reject the EU trade deal and join Russia’s customs union at this point. Maybe we should see how this plays out, seeing as how Euro-integration was actually his party’s idea and a major part of their platform. If he turns his back on it, his party’s bound to lose big in the next elections.

Agent Smith: Also I’ve got to wonder why we’re willing to overthrow a democratically-elected government on behalf of the European Union. They are after all competitors and the stronger the EU gets, the more it will inevitably compete with us. Obviously our continued cooperation and shared values keep us on the same side, but I don’t see why America should go out on a limb to fight their battles.

Jennings: Oh I’m sorry, I thought I was in a meeting with two veteran CIA operatives, people that realize that it is our agency and our agency alone that is responsible for every major political change in the world? I didn’t know I had two greenhorns here! Is that what I have here? Two rookies who are too afraid to overthrow a government because of a dispute over trade agreements?

Smith: No sir, I’m sorry.

Jennings: Waiting on you, Johnson!

Johnson: I’m sorry, sir, please continue.

Jennings: Thank you, gentlemen. So as I said, we need to overthrow Yanukovych because he stands in our way. I don’t mean that he has actually done anything to oppose the IMF or US policy, it’s just that he has ties to Russia. It’s not enough to let him leave office and allow his party to take a big loss at the polls thanks to their reversal of their own position on trade. We have to overthrow him!

Smith: So what do you propose?

Jennings: Well it’s quite simple. We’ll pay people to have a protest on Kiev’s Maidan Nezalezhnosti.

Johnson: A protest? Then what? Millions come out and overthrow the government?

Jennings: Well not at first. See at first there will be smaller protests, consisting mostly of students. Then, after some time, the Ukrainian special police Berkut will suddenly come in and clear the protesters from the square in an unusually brutal fashion. This will outrage people and cause them to join the protests.

Smith: That seems to make sense, sir, except one thing. How do we know these Berkut guys will react that way? Like, what if they clear the square without any unusual brutality, or what if it is brutal but then the government reacts by acknowledging the brutality and calling for an investigation? What if they use the police officials as scapegoats and start negotiating with the protesters?

Johnson: Oh yeah, what if people don’t respond to the police brutality in the first place, assuming it even happens that way?

Jennings: Don’t ask stupid questions. Of course the police will act according to plan. They have to. Otherwise this whole thing won’t work.

Johnson: I see, sir.

Smith: Of course.

Jennings: Anyway, this will soon lead to mass riots. Some of the fighters will consist of radical nationalist organizations, supporters of the Nazi collaborator Stepan Bandera, I’m sure you remember him.

Johnson: Bandera? Oh yes I remember. We were working with him in the post-war era until we dumped him and his followers because they were counterfeiting US dollars to fund their organization and they were attempting to engage in terrorist activity on American soil.

Smith: Well this is a bit of a digression, but those reports, just like any negative info you’ve ever read about Bandera or the Organization of Ukrainian Nationalists, were actually falsified by the KGB. You see that was back in the day when the Soviet KGB actually controlled the CIA. At least that’s what Ukrainian nationalists themselves claim.

Jennings: Gentlemen! Stay focused! As I said, we will use radical nationalists, some of whom have racist and antisemitic views.

Johnson: Hold up, sir! I’m not sure that’s a good idea. For one thing, the Russian propaganda machine will be all over that. Second, a lot of people in our countries will be put off by it as well. I think we should ensure that the movement is controlled by a more centrist, possibly even left-wing coalition. It should look really diverse and progressive so as to contrast it with Russia, which is obviously moving further and further right as of late.

Jennings: Johnson, you don’t understand. This movement has to have a prominent, clearly visible far-right presence, even if it hurts us on the propaganda front.

Smith: But…We control these color revolutions. Why can’t we just ensure the make-up so that Russia won’t be able to beat us over the head with rumors of neo-Nazis? Why-

Jennings: Don’t ask stupid questions!

Smith: I’m sorry again, sir. Nationalists it is.

Jennings: Good. Now the next stage is very important. Eventually the protests will continue, with more and more violence. Then snipers will open fire on crowds, and people will be killed.

Johnson: How do we know the government will react that way?

Jennings: The snipers will be secretly working for us.

Smith: Is there any chance we could get caught? That would be a major coup.

Jennings: Of course we won’t get caught. There won’t be any hard evidence. Just stuff that sounds convincing if you already believe that we were behind the coup. I’m not concerned with that audience.

Smith: Okay then. So the snipers shoot some people, and then what?

Jennings: Well eventually there will be a lull in the fighting and our European allies will sit down with Yanukovych and the opposition to strike a deal to stop the violence.Everyone will definitely agree to this deal…

Johnson: Wait, sir. If everyone is rioting and people are getting killed, why offer Yanukovych any kind of agreement? Why not just turn the pressure up even further and drive him out?

Jennings: Ah that’s the beauty of it. You see, Yanukovych will sign the agreement, but then he’ll quickly leave the country in the early morning hours of the next day. Checkmate!

Smith: Uh…How do you know he’ll leave the country? What if he stays and the deal goes through?

Jennings: No, he will definitely leave the country, because that’s what needs to happen.

Smith: So…Everything is going to happen exactly as we need it to happen, even though many of these events seem contingent on the actions of people we don’t directly control?

Jennings: Don’t directly control? Are you suggesting people other than us and the audience of Infowars and RT have agency? Don’t be stupid. We’re the CIA. Whenever something happens that goes against Russia’s geopolitical interests, we’re behind it.

Smith: Well…There was that one time in the 90’s when we supported the Chechen war of independence but then forgot to extend recognition to the Chechen Republic of Ichkeria after the peace agreement was reached.

Johnson: Yes, and we also forgot to destroy and dismantle Russia in the 90’s when it was incredibly weak.

Jennings: Don’t ever bring that up again! Do you hear! This Ukrainian revolution is going to go 100% according to plan, and we’re not going to get caught. Well, except by Global Research. Those bastards always nail us every time. But other than that, the whole thing will go like clockwork. Now we have no time to waste. Are you in?

Smith: All the way, sir!

Johnson: Let’s overthrow a government in the most roundabout and inefficient way, for bizarre reasons!

It's true. All of it.

[Deleted]

Another successful western project...Ukraine sliding down into the abyss and Nuland's cookies don't warm anymore..

Even the article you cite states the war with Russia is the reason the economy is tanking.

Pro-Kremlin whores may note the Russian economy is also tanking-and the Russian army doesn't seem to be making much progress against its vastly smaller neighbour. The more Russians that get sent home in body bags the better.

[Keeponrage]

Even the article you cite states the war with Russia is the reason the economy is tanking.

stop lying. The article says nothing about a war with Russia. Article refers to military conflict in eastern Ukraine.

Pro-Kremlin whores may note the Russian economy is also tanking-and the Russian army doesn't seem to be making much progress against its vastly smaller neighbour. The more Russians that get sent home in body bags the better.

Russian army doesn't make any attempts to make any progress againts its vastly smaller neighbour, cause it isn't involved. At most there are advisors and few "encouraged to join in" volunteers. No regular troops there.

[Gamevizier]

So is there a way for Ukraine to count the eastern parts as a lost cause, make amends with Russia and just move on trying to improve your economy and rebuild their country ? which was the reason for the popular revolt anyway. The western Ukraine is more pro-EU anyways why fight for the pro-russian rebel parts? let them live with their "papa bear russia" lover.

[caervek]

You really need to start coming up with new material. I'm not a fan of Putin either, but your refusal to talk like a normal person makes you just as annoying, if not more so, than the pro-Kremlin trolls.

If you read it like a Polandball comic it becomes very entertaining

- - - Updated - - -

So is there a way for Ukraine to count the eastern parts as a lost cause, make amends with Russia and just move on trying to improve your economy and rebuild their country ? which was the reason for the popular revolt anyway. The western Ukraine is more pro-EU anyways why fight for the pro-russian rebel parts? let them live with their "papa bear russia" lover.

Because Eastern Ukraine and Crimea were/are the rich parts.

[Gamevizier]

Because Eastern Ukraine and Crimea were/are the rich parts.

So the rich parts didn't want to join EU and the other parts wanted? didn't they get their wish?

[Deleted]

Thank Russia for invading and causing a war in a country that didn't have the economy to start one.

But hey! I'm just some EU citizen, I'm sure nothing I say has any value to you. Best to just praise The Great Leader, right?

- - - Updated - - -

So is there a way for Ukraine to count the eastern parts as a lost cause, make amends with Russia and just move on trying to improve your economy and rebuild their country ? which was the reason for the popular revolt anyway. The western Ukraine is more pro-EU anyways why fight for the pro-russian rebel parts? let them live with their "papa bear russia" lover.

Russia is gonna keep bullying their neighbors into submission or ruin their countries if they don't comply with Putins imperialistic ambitions.
Estonia and Lithuania have been saying for some time now how Russia is trying to sow discord everywhere.


But again and again these brainwashed fools come here to spout their governmentally ordained propaganda, perhaps to stop themselves from thinking twice about it. Just blame the US for everything and call anyone disagreeing with you a lackey of the US, ad hominem is the way.

[Mithfin]

RT as a source. Now, that is a good joke.

[Tackhisis]

What 'invasion' do you speak of if both parties involved in the war are citizens of Ukraine? Why do you need to shell the cities with civilians to solve a domestic dispute, in first place? Do you know that the Ukrainian laws prohibit using the army for any kind of 'anti-terror operations'? Do you know that the same laws prohibit creation of any kinds of 'volunteer' paramilitary gangs?

[caervek]

So the rich parts didn't want to join EU and the other parts wanted? didn't they get their wish?

It's a bit more complicated, essentially the divide between the pro-EU and pro-Russian areas in Ukraine are more of a case of those who benefitted from the fall of the USSR vs those who suffered from it. The East/Crimea suffered from it, the west benefited from it, and so because of that the west want closer ties with the EU whereas the east want closer ties with Russia.

It didn't help that almost immediately after the coup the new government announced some heavy anti-Russian laws and ordered the dismantling of many Soviet statues/memorials. This really angered the pro-Russian side who saw this as victimisation by a junta who had no concern for their interests, and thus the civil war started.

The sad thing is had the pro-EU politicians not been so overzealous it could all have been averted, instead of ousting Yanukovych illegally they should have initiated a vote of no confidence in him (which should have passed considering how narrowly the vote to impeach him failed) and forced him to hold an election. Then assuming the result was for a pro-EU government then the east would probably have been okay with it (Crimea would probably still have left) as they would have had their say and not have felt ignored/persecuted.

[Gamevizier]

It's a bit more complicated, essentially the divide between the pro-EU and pro-Russian areas in Ukraine are more of a case of those who benefitted from the fall of the USSR vs those who suffered from it. The East/Crimea suffered from it, the west benefited from it, and so because of that the west want closer ties with the EU whereas the east want closer ties with Russia.

It didn't help that almost immediately after the coup the new government announced some heavy anti-Russian laws and ordered the dismantling of many Soviet statues/memorials. This really angered the pro-Russian side who saw this as victimisation by a junta who had no concern for their interests, and thus the civil war started.

The sad thing is had the pro-EU politicians not been so overzealous it could all have been averted, instead of ousting Yanukovych illegally they should have initiated a vote of no confidence in him (which should have passed considering how narrowly the vote to impeach him failed) and forced him to hold an election. Then assuming the result was for a pro-EU government then the east would probably have been okay with it (Crimea would probably still have left) as they would have had their say and not have felt ignored/persecuted.

Well it's no use to argue about the past, what matters is that Ukraine is trying to undo something that's already done. They lack the power to retake the eastern parts, they can either continue trying and waste more resources or they can come up with a way to make do with what they have.

[Tackhisis]

...or they could wait for a few month and elect a new president. Without civil war. With Crimea. Mind-boggling, I know.

[Zstr]

I'm sure the EU will promise them truckloads of free money, that no member state actually wants to pay for.

throwing precious money on the wind? when EU already have lots financial problems

[caervek]

Well it's no use to argue about the past, what matters is that Ukraine is trying to undo something that's already done. They lack the power to retake the eastern parts, they can either continue trying and waste more resources or they can come up with a way to make do with what they have.

I wouldn't say they lack the power, just if they send the army in full force then Putin will declare "omgz the poor ethnic Russians" and annex the region lol. This is why they had so much trouble with the rebels, they were trying to beat them with an almost even force so not to give Russia an excuse to get involved, and their hands were tied as a result.

I think at some point they will have to negotiate, either give the eastern regions semi-autonomy or just call it a day and let them go because Kiev isn't getting adequate political support from the west to get them back and it's just going to drag on forever. Kiev may not want to let them go but it's the least worst option really as they cannot afford to keep things going as they are.

[Slant]

And again I knew this was Russia Today just judging from the thread title! I am on a roll!

Propaganda galore...

[Gamevizier]

I wouldn't say they lack the power, just if they send the army in full force then Putin will declare "omgz the poor ethnic Russians" and annex the region lol. This is why they had so much trouble with the rebels, they were trying to beat them with an almost even force so not to give Russia an excuse to get involved, and their hands were tied as a result.

I think at some point they will have to negotiate, either give the eastern regions semi-autonomy or just call it a day and let them go because Kiev isn't getting adequate political support from the west to get them back and it's just going to drag on forever. Kiev may not want to let them go but it's the least worst option really as they cannot afford to keep things going as they are.

I find it hard to believe that the Ukraine has been so far not been fighting with their kid-gloves off. it's a matter of national sovereignty, that's what the army is intended to be there for. The eastern rebels have been equipped by Russians by now, which makes fighting them even harder.

[Tackhisis]

I find it hard to believe that the Ukraine has been so far not been fighting with their kid-gloves off.

Not at all. The soldiers of official army know that they are fighting against Ukrainian citizens, that this is wrong, and that there is a good chance they can be prosecuted for it in the future. It is hard to expect a high morale, sobriety and determination.

[caervek]

I find it hard to believe that the Ukraine has been so far not been fighting with their kid-gloves off.

Ukraine isn't a third world country, before it gave up nuclear weapons it was the world's third largest nuclear power. If they took the kid gloves off against the rebels and fully committed the army/air force it would have been like the Iraqi army storming into Kuwait, the problem with that however would have been that the Russian response would have been like the coalition force storming into Iraq.

[Gamevizier]

Ukraine isn't a third world country, before it gave up nuclear weapons it was the world's third largest nuclear power. If they took the kid gloves off against the rebels and fully committed the army/air force it would have been like the Iraqi army storming into Kuwait, the problem with that however would have been that the Russian response would have been like the coalition force storming into Iraq.

military doesn't indicate a country's status of being a first world or a third world country. before Iraq got it's ass kicked by coalition forces it had the world's fourth largest military. Being a nuclear power doesn't indicate so either.