Hunter - Powershot

[Azortharion]

I would argue that during progression this expansion you two guys had a bit too much influence in the hunter community as a whole as to how they were suppose to be playing, what talents to be picking, what gear to equip. So throwing that out there (even though this quote is slightly out of context) is a bit hostile and very wrong.

The quote is not meant to say that only myself and Effin can possibly be right, but fact is we're the only ones putting out even somewhat progression-related theorycraft on a slightly popular scale. If you think that the advice given was wrong at the time (and now, really), engage in discussion with either of us. You can't just be saying that we have too much influence when theorycrafting is a "free market" for anyone wanting to contribute. It just has to be real math, or real arguments and not thin air like 99% of the disagreements with the estabilished guides that I see.

I don't know what "too much" influence really is, provided that the information was right? I believe it was correct 99% of the time.

[Dossou]

No. You can Barrage the first bombs within ring duration and create a significantly larger ring explosion, which very easily outweighs the small DPS gain that Powershot has over Barrage for single-target.

Our ring splits on Ghost Bombs every week since our melee are too autistic to swap to bombs in melee instantly

[Azortharion]

We're speaking about sub 1min fight here, so no second bombs. Also Tothed aimed shot takes about 12 focus when you factor in crit and the focus regen you get during a gcd so you're easily getting more than 2

Assumptions:
1.5s Barrage cast time.
All bombs hit within ring duration.

Starting with the "in-ring" phase, we have the choice of either:

Barrage, which hits for:

385k on a single target (my gear)
577.5k on 2 targets (Reaver + bomb)
770k on 3 targets
962.5k on 4 targets.

Single target:
DPF = 6k damage per focus
2 targets: 9.6k damage per focus
3 targets: 12.8k DPF
4 targets: 16k DPF


Aimed Shot has 250k DPE.

With ToTH that's 8.3k DPF
Without it's 5k DPF

Powershot is 138k DPE, or 9.2k DPF. At the Haste levels we got in this window, every shot except Barrage is completely or almost GCD-capped:

Choices:
+ Barrage, 3 targets is reasonable I think, 770k damage + 336.5k for ring explosion for 60 focus, 12.8k DPF (for just Barrage)
- 60 focus' worth of Aimed Shot, and 1.5s worth of Aimed Shots.
With ToTH on all of them we lose: 1 million + 437k for ring damage and 4 Aimed Shots (60 focus with crits on all and ToTH amounts to about 4 Aimed Shots):
With ToTH on none of them, 60 focus only amounts to 1 lost Aimed Shot.
With 3 charges of ToTH, you lose 3, 750k lost damage, plus Powershot 140k (rounding up) for 890k
With 2 charges of ToTH, you lose 2. - 500k lost damage, plus Powershot 140k (rounding up) for 640k lost
With 1 charge of ToTH, you lose 1. - 250k lost damage, plus Powershot 140k (rounding up) for 390k lost.
This choice takes 1.5s to complete.


Choice 2:
+ 1-4 Aimed Shots depending on how lucky you get, personally I think that 2 is a reasonably safe bet, so 640k lost which would take 2 seconds to complete and + 1 Powershot for 140k damage which is precast, so doesn't cut off the time spent, in theory, anyway. I tend to precast at 1.5s rather than 2 in the hopes of getting it within the ring. Since I believe this is optimal, I am gonna add another
- Barrage for 770k, which takes 1.4s to complete.

I left out passive regen since that is the same for both cases. Technically you'd cut a few focus off the Powershot opener from the opener, but whatever.


Example of Aimed Shot spam from 60 focus:
60 focus
Aimed Shot - down to 30
plus 20
50 focus
Aimed Shot
down to 20
plus 20
40 focus
Aimed Shot
down to 10
plus 20
Aimed Shot
dry

So by using Barrage, you take 1.4s to deal 770k damage, which is 550k DPS.
By going Aimed Shot, you take 2.0s - 2.5s to deal 780k damage, which is 312k - 390k DPS.

Essentially, and if you follow the guide and delay RF a tad off the opener until you Steady Shot, you can use the saved time to do a Steady into another Aimed Shot with the Barrage strategy, cutting off a significant part of Aimed Shot's (already small) damage benefit.

Sorry for the messy post, in a bit of a rush.

[Deleted]

Don't know what you just said, so i just went to simc and did some basic add spawns and stuff.

http://i.imgur.com/fQBsCHw.png

it hits full barrage to 3 targets, which i believe is pretty rare on reaver (most of the time the bombs die while some of the barrage projectiles are still in the air)

The add durations and stuff are irrelevant here, had to make them last abit longer to get simc actually hit all the bombs correctly

[Azortharion]

You can't sim everything. Fact is, even if the Powershot case was better, it wouldn't be by as much as your sim puts it. Without the HTML, I can't point out exactly where the sim falls short.

The part where you don't know what I just said, is that me not saying it clearly enough, or you being willfully ignorant?

[Donkeywing]

The quote is not meant to say that only myself and Effin can possibly be right, but fact is we're the only ones putting out even somewhat progression-related theorycraft on a slightly popular scale. If you think that the advice given was wrong at the time (and now, really), engage in discussion with either of us. You can't just be saying that we have too much influence when theorycrafting is a "free market" for anyone wanting to contribute. It just has to be real math, or real arguments and not thin air like 99% of the disagreements with the estabilished guides that I see.

I don't know what "too much" influence really is, provided that the information was right? I believe it was correct 99% of the time.

Ofc I can say you have too much influence despite tc being a ''free market''. Theres 600 pages on your thread. Its your guide, you finalize it, you have the final say. Your name is on it. No matter how many people contributed in your thread and no matter how strong their arguments might be.
Your work is good let there be no mistake. I aint doing it. Doesnt mean I think you are flawless in all your recommendations or that I'm ''wrong'' when I say your work has a bit too much influence on the entire hunter community.

We could always argue what too much influence really means. But I think we both roughly understand what it means. Thats why I fell over your quote earlier. Extremely hostile, no matter if it was thin air or not, it speaks to alot more people than just him.

[Azortharion]

Ofc I can say you have too much influence despite tc being a ''free market''. Theres 600 pages on your thread. Its your guide, you finalize it, you have the final say. Your name is on it. No matter how many people contributed in your thread and no matter how strong their arguments might be.
Your work is good let there be no mistake. I aint doing it. Doesnt mean I think you are flawless in all your recommendations or that I'm ''wrong'' when I say your work has a bit too much influence on the entire hunter community.

We could always argue what too much influence really means. But I think we both roughly understand what it means. Thats why I fell over your quote earlier. Extremely hostile, no matter if it was thin air or not, it speaks to alot more people than just him.

Nobody's TC is perfect, I don't pretend to be, either. I also don't dismiss the input of others on the guide, or even alternative ways of doing things (which this discussion with Twinkeli goes a long way to show, even if I may not be a fan of his way of putting things, or whatever).

The fact is that pretty much none of what the guide says is "my opinion" on things, it's backed up by math that is reproducable by anyone, even if that math is not on the guide itself (which would make it an unreadable guide).

I don't get what you mean by "hostile", I am not gonna redact what I said because it is exactly what I mean. In theorycraft, you can't just try and upset the status quo or "go against" estabilished guides without something to back up what you're saying other than words. I think that's reasonable, myself.

[Donkeywing]

Well, lets not get into redacting since I'm all for freedom of speech and so on. What I think about it is just my opinion anyway in the end

I have nothing else to say on this matter, maybe next tier.

[Deleted]

Just to give you an idea, My initial burst is anywhere from 100-120k SINGLE target with a sustained 80-90k sustained. My ilvl is 702.

On a dummy.

- - - Updated - - -

One feature of powershot that people forget is there until they use it is the knockback. Nothing makes a tank more annoyed when you send that add mob 20yards away from you. Generally speaking, I end up using barrage.

Zakuun doesn't get knocked back.

- - - Updated - - -

First off, I never claimed to be a hardcore, or otherwise, raider. You assuming that doesn't make your response any less dickish. Just because I'm not elite and don't have logs to back up my shitty DPS claims, doesn't mean I'd lie about it. Another assumption that you missed wide on. And for the little quip about my neck enchant? I told you my gear was crap... that was including gems/enchants... thought you would have figured that out... bad assumption on my part :-)

All in all, just because a lot of people agree with you, doesn't mean there isn't another way to do things. You're not the only one that theorycrafts hunters... You're just the loudest one.

While Azortharion might be harsh, you're simply 1 of many uninformed inexperienced Hunters proclaiming absolutely wrong advice to innocent lads who are turning to these boards for honest advice from the wonderful Hunter community.
And the worst thing? You refuse to acknowledge how wrong you are. I mean...you just told someone to take Steady Focus because it allows you to dump more AS into TotH procs.

What's next? Gearing Leather because it has more Haste on it?

[Eapoe]

Also you're talking about ais being better than ps because of the cast time?

outside of Careful Aim ais is actually pretty shitty ability, it averages 50k hit and 120k crits, with some basic math you can calculate the average dmg of the spell to be around 85k.

ps is averaging 69k hits and 160k crits, which averages to 115k.

looking at the longest Arch pull we've had so far my AiS's were averaging about 131k. No idea what PS would average here since I don't use it, but the math you are showing doesn't add up

Also, you're right, no 2nd power shot up before lust wears off.

[Azortharion]

If AiS is 148k, PS is 134k, so AiS is roughly 9.5% more damage.

PS has an average cast time of 1.7786s with 639 or 12.45% buffed Haste, giving it a DPS of 75.3k, divided by its focus cost its 5k DPF.

Aimed Shot is instant, so 1 second to cast, which means it deals 148k DPS, divided by its average focus cost (38.2 in my gear, should be roughly the same for everyone's gear) gives it a DPF of 3874.

With ToTH, AiS's DPF is 4.9k.
Without, it's 3k.

The simplified version is that Powershot is always worth casting over Aimed Shot throughout the general rotation, but when immediate damage is required (such as within the ring or RF), you'd Aimed Shot throughout and save a potential Powershot for when you do not have focus to Aimed Shot anymore (in order to ensure that you got maximum focus spendage when you're buffed, spending 2 seconds on a cast that costs 15 focus is a very slow way to burn focus, and you're occasionally in a hurry if RNG likes you).

Still, the difference between using Powershot and using nothing at all (with the SimC APL modified to precast Powershot) is below 1%, so make of that what you want.

[Eapoe]

Also, not belittling this thread in the slightest. PS very well could be higher single target than AiS for ST fights. As Azor pointed out there are some guidelines for following to make this correct, and if you are good enough to keep all this in mind during the fight, please do and pull higher numbers. However, this thread is getting really out of hand talking about PS vs Barrage vs AiS over one fight (Fel Lord). Personally, I do not like the feel of it and do not want to add complication to a simple playstyle for a small dps gain. I completely retract my previous comments about PS and admit I was wrong about it being higher ST.

[Azortharion]

We weren't talking about Fel Lord if that's the discussion you were referring to, it was Iron Reaver.