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  1. #1

    TBC vs MoP on theme and races.

    A new trend I'm seeing recently, is people stating that MoP was a fantastic expansion. That it did a lot of good things, but the key problem with it all which was so bad that it ended up bringing the whole thing down with it, is that the fantasy asian theme and Pandaren do not fit, and that a former April fools joke should not have been made a race.


    On the other hand, there is never anything ill ever spoken of TBC, despite it having the same issue, arguably much worse at that.

    Starting with theme: MoP was a fantasy asian setting, in a setting where other races already had some asian influence (Nelf and Korea and Orc and Mongolia, for example).

    On the other hand, TBC was a science fantasy setting, where no other races had really strong science fantasy roots, save for Gnomes, who ended up moving further down that path -because- of TBC, and even then were less scifi and more steam punk.

    I am not saying either is wrong, but why is TBC free of criticism, when it has such giant theme shifts. Suddenly we had elves flying space ships and our demons are actually aliens from space. What did MoP do? Suddenly our Orcs with samurai heroes were meeting people who fight with their fists?


    Then there is the issue with race.

    MoP added Pandaren. A race that was once a april fools joke, but were none the less established in canon from WC3 TFT on due to Chen, and mesh well with the races of the game.

    TBC added Draenei: A race that only exists due to a retcon, weren't really hinted at prior to TBC, ended up messing up the light lore pretty hard with their gods (even fucking with night elf religion later on: Elune is likely a naaru), ended up sticking their fingers all into Orc lore, and are a blatantly sci-fi race in a fantasy setting.


    Yet Pandaren are the ones who are complained about. In this case I will say its bullshit. Draenei are a giant lore hole that simply do not fit to the point where blizzard has even admitted they dont know what to do with them. But, why are they not criticized for this. Why do Pandaren ruin MoP for being an april fools joke. But Draenei do not ruin TBC for fucking the lore 6 ways to hell for both horde and alliance?
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  2. #2
    Scarab Lord Lime's Avatar
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    TBC introduced space cows. The only reason it wasn't picked apart by the masses is because the race didn't really have anything "silly" associated with it, besides the way Male Draenei look.

    Pandaren, while sometimes being able to be taken serious (Taran Zhu), have a lot of silliness. From what I've noticed from the WoW community, the second someone sees a race as silly, they immediately dislike it with a burning passion. The fact that a lot of people's first impression with the race is usually comical, it doesn't help it's case.

  3. #3
    Quote Originally Posted by Lime View Post
    TBC introduced space cows. The only reason it wasn't picked apart by the masses is because the race didn't really have anything "silly" associated with it, besides the way Male Draenei look.

    Pandaren, while sometimes being able to be taken serious (Taran Zhu), have a lot of silliness. From what I've noticed from the WoW community, the second someone sees a race as silly, they immediately dislike it with a burning passion. The fact that a lot of people's first impression with the race is usually comical, it doesn't help it's case.
    Aside from the Stormstout questline in valley, what was so silly about Pandaren? There were serious quest lines all over MoP, with a smattering of funny here and there. Which TBC also had (picking up poo...)

    And are you forgetting the goblin city and gnome city of TBC which was almost nothing but silly?
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  4. #4
    The minute you walked through the portal it wasn't sunshine and lollipops in TBC. Pandaria was different at the start and it set a tone of a brewing conflict underneath but it wasn't as in your face as TBC.

    Blizzard has learned a valuable lesson since MoP...you set the tone early and often of a war torn conflict. That is probably the genesis behind WoD and Legion.

    Demon Hunters, like Death Knights are set to be very popular and a big reason why is because they are not cuddly haha.

  5. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by Mafic View Post
    The minute you walked through the portal it wasn't sunshine and lollipops in TBC. Pandaria was different at the start and it set a tone of a brewing conflict underneath but it wasn't as in your face as TBC.

    Blizzard has learned a valuable lesson since MoP...you set the tone early and often of a war torn conflict. That is probably the genesis behind WoD and Legion.

    Demon Hunters, like Death Knights are set to be very popular and a big reason why is because they are not cuddly haha.
    The start of MoP was thrusting you straight on to an airship in a desperate battle against the other faction.

    Regardless, this is a question of theme. The theme of TBC clashed heavily with everything WoW had before and the new race was a massive departure to the extent that it ended up changing and retconning things everywhere just so they could poorly fit in.
    Last edited by Toppy; 2015-12-25 at 05:44 AM.
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  6. #6
    Pit Lord Denkou's Avatar
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    Did you play when TBC came out? There was TONS of criticism and backlash from a race/lore standpoint, from Blood Elves being introduced to the Horde to Draenei lore basically being a giant retcon.

    You might have forgotten, after all it has been some number of years, but there was definitely tons of criticism when it first came out.

  7. #7
    I loved when people were bitching about an Asian-themed expansion. Yeah, no role-playing game has ever done *that* before.
    Last edited by warzerotwo; 2015-12-25 at 05:48 AM.

  8. #8
    Scarab Lord Lime's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Toppy View Post
    Aside from the Stormstout questline in valley, what was so silly about Pandaren? There were serious quest lines all over MoP, with a smattering of funny here and there. Which TBC also had (picking up poo...)

    And are you forgetting the goblin city and gnome city of TBC which was almost nothing but silly?
    I'm comparing the races, not the expansions.

    And comparing Pandaren to the other joke races isn't doing much good. Gnomes would've gotten a much worse rep than Pandaren if there was an expansion centered around them as well.

  9. #9
    TBC added Draenei: A race that only exists due to a retcon, weren't really hinted at prior to TBC, ended up messing up the light lore pretty hard with their gods (even fucking with night elf religion later on: Elune is likely a naaru), ended up sticking their fingers all into Orc lore, and are a blatantly sci-fi race in a fantasy setting.
    But the naaru have done essentially nothing with any race other than blood elves. They haven't done anything to the human religion or the night elf religion.

    Orcs had slaughtered the draenei as far back as WC2 lore, so I'm not sure what you mean they got their fingers into orc lore. They were always there.

    They aren't a sci-fi race, all their stuff is magic. Magic≠science.

  10. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by Wyrt View Post
    Orcs had slaughtered the draenei as far back as WC2 lore, so I'm not sure what you mean they got their fingers into orc lore. They were always there.
    They were always there as a vauge mention of the former inhabitants of Draenor that were mass-slaughtered by the orcs (the original Warcraft 2 manual where they were first mentioned never described them as anything more than 'weak, peaceful farmers'). All that crap about being uncorrupted eredar and having their own personal Jesus chandeliers was pulled out of Metzen's ass for TBC.

  11. #11
    people really hated the Asian theme I feel. some of us just want the cookie cutter elves, dwarves and Orcs shit that's been so played out. heaven forbid an entire planet like Azeroth have settings other then western medieval. there being Pandas involved only exacerbated the butthurt.

  12. #12
    The Lightbringer Adramalech's Avatar
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    Anyone who spends any time on these forums knows that TBC gets free passes for everything. Good or bad, that expansion is praised like it was flawless. MoP was a great expansion, but people can't get over "pandas", or in some cases, the daily quest issue at the beginning of the expansion. People will bring down the whole expansion because of a few flaws, but refuse to do the same to TBC. Lately, Wrath, which was hated and cursed when it was current (possibly even more so than Cataclysm and WoD), is reaching godhood status like TBC as well.

    Honestly, I just accept that some expansions are better, and some are worse. They all have strong points and horrible flaws, but they were still all enjoyable enough. It's just that some people have that pet favourite which gets free passes on every mistake (or indeed, marking these mistakes as good design), as if it makes them some kind of "veteran" who's word is more valuable. At least that's the impression you get reading the forums whenever such discussions come up.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Denkou View Post
    Did you play when TBC came out? There was TONS of criticism and backlash from a race/lore standpoint, from Blood Elves being introduced to the Horde to Draenei lore basically being a giant retcon.

    You might have forgotten, after all it has been some number of years, but there was definitely tons of criticism when it first came out.
    Definitely. Every expansion got its fair share of hate, some more than others. But for TBC, that hate mostly dissipated as soon as Wrath came out... well, not right away, but it didn't take that long. Flaws are successes, and every other expansion sucks.
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  13. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by Wyrt View Post
    But the naaru have done essentially nothing with any race other than blood elves. They haven't done anything to the human religion or the night elf religion.

    Orcs had slaughtered the draenei as far back as WC2 lore, so I'm not sure what you mean they got their fingers into orc lore. They were always there.

    They aren't a sci-fi race, all their stuff is magic. Magic≠science.
    The source of the Orc's old religion, the ancestral spirits, we're only around because they were drawn to the Naaru at Oshu'gun. The light used to be a power that came from within, but TBC made it into something that was granted by sentient wind chimes (and could be taken by force.)

    You can say they're not a sci-fi race, but I've been to their space-ship and seen their holo-projectors. They may not be hard sci-fi bit they certainly introduced a lot of space opera themes, and that was before we got to the demon battle-mechs, laser arms, force-field biodomes and "nethergon" (a clear reference to energon from Transformers.)

    Add that to the Eredar/Draenei retcon and it's pretty clear why TBC annoyed the hell out of some lore-nerds and people who wanted to play in a mediaeval fantasy setting.

  14. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by warzerotwo View Post
    They were always there as a vauge mention of the former inhabitants of Draenor that were mass-slaughtered by the orcs (the original Warcraft 2 manual where they were first mentioned never described them as anything more than 'weak, peaceful farmers'). All that crap about being uncorrupted eredar and having their own personal Jesus chandeliers was pulled out of Metzen's ass for TBC.
    Ok.

    Just like orcs not being evil demons was pulled out of Metzen's ass for WC2.

    Draenei is far from the first or biggest retcon to happen, but for some reason it's the one people bitch about the most.

    The source of the Orc's old religion, the ancestral spirits, we're only around because they were drawn to the Naaru at Oshu'gun. The light used to be a power that came from within, but TBC made it into something that was granted by sentient wind chimes (and could be taken by force.)

    You can say they're not a sci-fi race, but I've been to their space-ship and seen their holo-projectors. They may not be hard sci-fi bit they certainly introduced a lot of space opera themes, and that was before we got to the demon battle-mechs, laser arms, force-field biodomes and "nethergon" (a clear reference to energon from Transformers.)

    Add that to the Eredar/Draenei retcon and it's pretty clear why TBC annoyed the hell out of some lore-nerds and people who wanted to play in a mediaeval fantasy setting.
    Pretty sure orcs had shamanism for longer than the 200 years draenei were on Draenor. Hard to develop an entire religion in that short amount of time.

    The gnome and goblin steampunk technology is more sci-fi than the draenei's high fantasy magi-tech.

    People just need to stop being babies and get the fuck over the retcon already. Having the eredar be pure chaotic evil by nature is just boring. That's also why Metzen retconned the orcs away from being pure chaotic evil as well. Orcs received pretty much exactly the same retcon the draenei did, but no one bitches about that.
    Last edited by Wyrt; 2015-12-25 at 09:47 AM.

  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lime View Post
    TBC introduced space cows. The only reason it wasn't picked apart by the masses is because the race didn't really have anything "silly" associated with it, besides the way Male Draenei look.

    Pandaren, while sometimes being able to be taken serious (Taran Zhu), have a lot of silliness. From what I've noticed from the WoW community, the second someone sees a race as silly, they immediately dislike it with a burning passion. The fact that a lot of people's first impression with the race is usually comical, it doesn't help it's case.
    TBH, the problem with Pandaren aren't the Pandaren themselves, but rather that a big part of the playerbase just didn't WANT to see pandaren as anything other than Kung-Fu-Panda. I'd argue that Pandaren, while they started as an aprils fools joke, are less of a joke race than Goblins or Gnomes.

  16. #16
    Scarab Lord Manabomb's Avatar
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    I actually pretty much agree with the OP. At first I found the silliness of Pandaren to be almost annoying, even overplayed sometimes when questing or dealing with Pandaren. But after a while and getting a good look at TBC again (Found a private server with ultra fast leveling, oh damn), I finally figured out that the game has been polished up way more with MoP than any expansion previous. MoP was a great expansion even with the silliness, and it's not like there was ever not an air of silliness in the rest of WoW.

    Picking up shit and using an outhouse for quests are the first to come to mind that are not only memorable, but also completely silly. Not to mention the huge amount of sexuality in the game that borders on complete parody. People that complain about Pandaren's silliness obviously never really paid attention to what littered the foreground of their "best" expansions.
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  17. #17
    The Lightbringer Adramalech's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jiggler View Post
    TBH, the problem with Pandaren aren't the Pandaren themselves, but rather that a big part of the playerbase just didn't WANT to see pandaren as anything other than Kung-Fu-Panda. I'd argue that Pandaren, while they started as an aprils fools joke, are less of a joke race than Goblins or Gnomes.
    Goblins were used as funny neutral units with silly dialog and things like blowing themselves up. Gnomes weren't heard from since what... Warcraft I? II? And even then, as token units. Even the dwarves, awesome as they are, always had their air of silliness despite being heavily involved in the lore. WoW itself has always been full of such things.

    But suddenly pandaren are too much.
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  18. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by Adramalech View Post
    Goblins were used as funny neutral units with silly dialog and things like blowing themselves up. Gnomes weren't heard from since what... Warcraft I? II? And even then, as token units. Even the dwarves, awesome as they are, always had their air of silliness despite being heavily involved in the lore. WoW itself has always been full of such things.

    But suddenly pandaren are too much.
    For me it's more the constant finger wagging of the pandaren coupled with just sheer stupidity like War Crimes and the whole "We just spent the entire expansion bitching at you to stop fighting but now we're going to say having all your best heroes slaughtered and cities destroyed makes you stronger!"

    It was just too much stupidity in what was supposed to be presented in game as wise.

  19. #19
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    People started to play wow cuz it had demons, undeads and dragons in a western mediveal timeline, not cuz it had helpless pandas wanting you to save their beer or food from the shadow people.

  20. #20
    The Lightbringer Adramalech's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wyrt View Post
    For me it's more the constant finger wagging of the pandaren coupled with just sheer stupidity like War Crimes and the whole "We just spent the entire expansion bitching at you to stop fighting but now we're going to say having all your best heroes slaughtered and cities destroyed makes you stronger!"

    It was just too much stupidity in what was supposed to be presented in game as wise.
    Their lessons weren't wrong. It's just that they were all in your face about it, all the time. I didn't say the expansion was perfect, or that the pandaren were portrayed perfectly. It's just that they, and their expansion, are heavily criticized for things like what you pointed out, while big flaws from TBC (Turning Kael into a traitor and joining the Legion, having Illidan become crazy-ish and borderline villain with little to no explanation as to why he suddenly became one... and those were all major lore characters that were butchered one by one, in a single expansion) are treated like no big deal. But like I said before, all of those are handwaved away. But Elune forbid the pandaren have flaws in how they were used.
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