Muslim workers in Fort Morgan fired over prayer dispute walkout

[Endus]

This is where I'm coming from.

I manage a call center. And I'm happy to accommodate a few people with moving their breaks or lunches for religious reasons. But there's no way in hell I could set 150 people out for breaks at exactly the same time so that they can pray at their religiously mandated times.

If it became an issue I'd have to consult with our legal and HR teams to get the policy changed. Because you just can not have that huge chunk of workforce vanish during a phone queue, chat queue or major event. It just would not work :/

Believe me; I understand the nature of that kind of work. I've worked at quite a few call centers, in the past. I know exactly how rigorous that scheduling is to ensure the phones are covered.

The issue I'm bringing up is that the number is less important than the proportion; most places I've worked where this was an issue, we staggered lunches over 2 hours, and breaks over the remaining time. And people generally didn't get breaks during the first/last half hour of their shift. Given the math, that would mean each 15-minute break period within that time could handle the 150 Muslim workers; more than 150 people are gonna be on break at any given time, if everyone's working a 9-5. And if they're working 24/7, the proportions still work out, assuming they're evenly distributed over the shifts (and there's little reason why they couldn't be). Remember; this place employs over 2000 people. 150 isn't a huge chunk. Particularly if you can break that into two groups for back-to-back break sessions, on the off chance that you still can't get them all on one break.

[TirielWoW]

Believe me; I understand the nature of that kind of work. I've worked at quite a few call centers, in the past. I know exactly how rigorous that scheduling is to ensure the phones are covered.

The issue I'm bringing up is that the number is less important than the proportion; most places I've worked where this was an issue, we staggered lunches over 2 hours, and breaks over the remaining time. And people generally didn't get breaks during the first/last half hour of their shift. Given the math, that would mean each 15-minute break period within that time could handle the 150 Muslim workers; more than 150 people are gonna be on break at any given time, if everyone's working a 9-5. And if they're working 24/7, the proportions still work out, assuming they're evenly distributed over the shifts (and there's little reason why they couldn't be). Remember; this place employs over 2000 people. 150 isn't a huge chunk. Particularly if you can break that into two groups for back-to-back break sessions, on the off chance that you still can't get them all on one break.

That also presumes that they're evenly dispersed into every crew. We don't know that to be the case. It may be that the 150 workers were concentrated in one or maybe two crews (possibly due to religious restrictions on what types of meat they could handle).

[Deleted]

Private companies shouldn't be expected to have to take someones religion into account.

[Endus]

That also presumes that they're evenly dispersed into every crew.

To be fair, I acknowledged that we lacked this info, but also that dispersing them in that way would be a reasonable way to accommodate their needs.

If we can find some info that explains further, I'm all ears, as I noted in a prior post. If it's just about the numbers, though, I don't see how the 150 out of 2000+ creates a situation where they can't be accommodated; the numbers suggest otherwise.

[RyanEX]

company is now going to waste some time and money replacing them, when an easier solution is just setting up the lunch breaks a bit differently.

The way I read it it seems that we're not being told the entire story.

We're told that the workers had been using previously carved out break times and their unpaid lunch break to go and pray.
Then we're told that the company decided to change the practice.

Seems to me that we're missing something in between that resulted in the change. Or it could just be that their bosses are douchebags.

That said, considering how Muslims are required to pray at specific periods for specific lengths of time over the course of the day, I can see how having 150 workers all taking a break at the same time can mess up an assembly line. Corporate America makes no concessions for any religion so they aren't a special case. Just another situation where I make my point that immigrants need to know what they're getting into and understand how they have to adapt to their new country and not the other way around.

[TirielWoW]

To be fair, I acknowledged that we lacked this info, but also that dispersing them in that way would be a reasonable way to accommodate their needs.

If we can find some info that explains further, I'm all ears, as I noted in a prior post. If it's just about the numbers, though, I don't see how the 150 out of 2000+ creates a situation where they can't be accommodated; the numbers suggest otherwise.

Well, I doubt they want to deal with pork since they are devout Muslims. Depending on how much pork the facility processes, they may have already distributed them as evenly as they can. But, really, we just need to get more info. Which I suspect will become available in the coming weeks.

[TITAN308]

To be fair, I acknowledged that we lacked this info, but also that dispersing them in that way would be a reasonable way to accommodate their needs.

The question is, aren't their prayer times specific set times, does their religion allow them to "post pone" prayer for a different time?

And I could be very wrong, but I was under the assumption there is a strict schedule for them to do what they do. There are even loud speakers all over some Middle Eastern cities alerting them to the time.

[Deleted]

Did anyone replying to this actually read the articles on the subject?

It seems like the issue here is that some of the workers claim that they were told they were not allowed to pray at all. "If you want to pray - go home".
This was then picked up upon by CAIR (Council of American-Islamic relations), where someone thought that instead of taking this up with management as reasonable people, they should instead organize a strike that were not approved by the union.
The actual way the policy is written seems to work for the employees and employer both - apart from a few whiners. This seems to be standard "union rep mad with power" (even though CAIR is not a union, but you get the point) who picks up on a few complaints and inflates it until everything goes to hell.


I'm willing to bet that what really happened was something like this:

1. Everyone is quite happy, things are mostly working out.
2. Someone complains (rightfully or not) about not being allowed to take the brakes s/he wanted for praying
3. Stressed middle/line manager snaps and says "if you want to pray - go home".
4. Complainer complains to colleagues. Colleagues raise the issue as well.
5. Middle/line manager knows he said something stupid, but don't want to lose face - won't back down.
6. Complainers go to CAIR screaming about religious oppression.
7. CAIR goes mental, and arrange walk-out without talking to management.

I've worked in industry and with my union for many many years. The complainers, bad middle/line managers and power hungry union reps always exist. The problem here seems to mainly have been that it wasn't the union the compainers went to, but to CAIR. Ay CAIR there were no one who actually knew how to deal with the situation in a reasonable manner - which ended with 190 people getting fired, although most likely only a handful were actually unhappy.

[announced]

they had it coming, you cant interrupt production by sending 150 people on a 15 min prayer break thats just laughable. Religion shouldn't have any place at work. If you want to pray go ahead but use your own time, if your god decrees you must pray at exactly 11:15am then again at 12:05pm and 3 more times in the day that's just nonsense.

[prwraith]

Believe me; I understand the nature of that kind of work. I've worked at quite a few call centers, in the past. I know exactly how rigorous that scheduling is to ensure the phones are covered.

The issue I'm bringing up is that the number is less important than the proportion; most places I've worked where this was an issue, we staggered lunches over 2 hours, and breaks over the remaining time. And people generally didn't get breaks during the first/last half hour of their shift. Given the math, that would mean each 15-minute break period within that time could handle the 150 Muslim workers; more than 150 people are gonna be on break at any given time, if everyone's working a 9-5. And if they're working 24/7, the proportions still work out, assuming they're evenly distributed over the shifts (and there's little reason why they couldn't be). Remember; this place employs over 2000 people. 150 isn't a huge chunk. Particularly if you can break that into two groups for back-to-back break sessions, on the off chance that you still can't get them all on one break.

Proportionally I suppose it's really not so bad. Though with regards to managing through the peak season I'm not sure it would be feasible. There are days where we've cut breaks down to 5-10 minutes and lunches to 15 minutes which is as short as we can legally make them in florida. Just to handle the incoming volume.

On days like that I don't think we'd be able to pull it off without screwing over everyone who doesn't pray at specific times. And that would land us in the HR hornets nest.

Idk, it's a problem I wish didn't exist. I'm all for keeping religion entirely out of the workplace but if reasonable accommodations can be feasibly met we / they should do them.

[Independent voter]

The manager who fired the Somalis said that he needs enough people to run the production line, probably a conveyor belt of some kind. If people leave to pray he has to stop the line and he can't do that cause it costs the business lots of money to stop the line.

The plant employs 600 Somali Muslims and only a 1/4 of them were fired for walking off the job.

Seems like everyone needs to compromise in this situation. No the production line can't stop so you can pray.

[Orlong]

It wasn't private. All businesses like that are what we call "public accomodations", and they are not allowed to discriminate against protected classes; in the case of that bakery, their state recognized sexual orientation as one such protected class.

Same here; protection of religious rights is covered federally under the EEOC. Employers don't get to discriminate on religious grounds, and reasonable religious accommodations are to be provided as long as they do not cause undue hardship to the employer. Which they'd have to positively prove, I'll note, if they want to make that claim. The onus isn't on the employee, if that accusation is made.

Also; baking a cake is in no way "participating in a wedding".

And public accomodation laws are bullshit and need to be rescinded. If I invest all my money into my own business I should be able to tell anyone I want to, to go suck lemons if I dont want their business

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Also; baking a cake is in no way "participating in a wedding".

Yes it is. Without your cake the wedding wouldnt be the same. IN addition if its a nice cake other gays will want you to make one after seeing it at the wedding

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Or make it a private establishment then you can deny making a cake for anyone you want.

That would require selling memberships, and people arent going to buy a membership to buy something they are only going to buy once in their life

[Tackhisis]

And public accomodation laws are bullshit and need to be rescinded.

Not at all. If you do not serve the society in the best way, you should be removed in order to remove competition to one who will.

[apeiron1234]

Companies mainly factory jobs have bent over backwards for Muslims. It's literally fucking unbelievable in some places. A factory my brother is working at allows Muslims five 15 minute breaks just to pray not counting their regular breaks. They destroy the bathrooms because for some reason in their imaginary religion they are not allowed to use toilet paper so they use water bottles to water out the shit from their assholes thus resulting in shitty bathrooms. They get up on the sinks and wash their nasty fucking feet where normal people who do not have brain damage go to wash their hands. The best part about all of this is when they take so many breaks the other people have to make up for their workload.

I'm going to start my own religion and say that I have to have everything for free and I have to sit on my ass for at least 8 hours a day.

Infracted for bashing race/religion

Just gonna go ahead and repost this for you my liberal buddy. "Insulting an entire culture" LOL.

It's the fucking truth.

[TITAN308]

Not at all. If you do not serve the society in the best way, you should be removed in order to remove competition to one who will.

All hail our Comrade. rofl

[Mistame]

You get so many more rights as a Religious person it's a little bit ridiculous. This nonsense where people ask to be treated "equally" but also be granted more rights than would be afforded to someone who isn't religious is getting out of hand.

And therein lies the problem. There should be no accommodation where it affects other employees. When the expression of your religion starts affecting other people, you're infringing on their religious freedom. I should have just as much right to not have my work flow interrupted for someone else's religion as they do to express that religion.

[Deleted]

I see nothing wrong with that. It isnt and shouldnt be the employers duty to cater to workers religious beliefs.

[Orlong]

Not at all. If you do not serve the society in the best way, you should be removed in order to remove competition to one who will.

Businesses dont exist to serve society, they exist to make the owners money. If society doesnt like the way someone runs their business, they have the option to not patronize it and the business will go out of business.