[Poll] Do you like the (current) Legion version of ret?

[Deleted]

You can talent into options for Holy Power
Divine Storm and Holy Wrath will both be able to heal. Also, lay on Hands. Hand of Light also heals for 30-70% over 10 seconds.
2 talented charges, 1 talented speed boost.
Blessing of Kings is Sacred Shield. Blessing of Might is a damage buff. Blessing of Wisdom is a mana restore and a heal both built into 1! You also get Blessing of Freedom. Blessing of Protection.
Shield of Vengeance and Divine Shield are both damage reductions. Ashbringer also has a built in talent for damage reduction.

Only that the options for Holy Power are absolutly useless. Both SoL and HW are by far to weak and have to many downsides to be considered anything near to be strong. SoL takes away a FV and gives only 15% movementspeed and 30% attackspeed neither of them are good and HW heals next to nothing , has a cast time and leaves us open to kicks.
Hand of Light will inevitbly heal only up to a max of 30% ( realisticly not even the full 30% because the target will not always be dealed damage to every second ) and nobody will every think in neither PvP nor PvE " shit i need health , so let me kill that dude or mob in order to be healed ".

2 Charges? Since when is that the case? I see only TM as being somewhat of a charge-ish. And TM has it's downsides with taking to long in being used and it is basicly little more than heoric leap because it also needs a pathway. Not only that but in order to choose TM we have to forgo a ranged DPS talent.
AS for Divine Steed. It is a movement speed increase for 4 sec and thats just about it. It still leaves us open to be slowed and has a 1min cd. It is basicly Speed of light and there is a reason no one really chooses this talent on live.

BoK: A small absorb - how powerfull , BoM 10% chance for your abilities to do 30% additional dps - wow so overpowered , Blessing of Wisdom a small chance to be healed by 5% and mana which we do not need - jup who needs everything else if you have a toolkip this powerfull. Realisticly speaking for the Blessings to be anywhere usefull the must be somewhat overpowered or else i see no way why anyone would take us into their Raid or Arena group.
BoF is now part of our mobility so this can no longer be counted as support, BoP 10 sec immunity against meele attacks with a 5min cd that can be dispelled by priests and warriors

SoV is a absorb and not even a strong one. Divine Shield is actually strong but lasts only for 8 seconds and has 5 min cooldown , in PvP this means since we have no real def - pressure the ret to use bubble and once it is off kill him. Just about now - and thats the point here our "def" is in legion a fuckton weaker than it is on live currently and if you are even remotly suggesting that ret on live has a strong def i suggest you should test yourself because might have fatal brain damage.

Ashbringer Talent - yeah because nobody has a artifact weapon build in dmg reduction , right?

[Deleted]

Getting high cooldowns on my abilities, it saddens me.
Getting %damage on tiers from my talent, it saddens me too.
Getting NO HASTE on talent that could, it enrages me (i loooove high apm).

Of course I could choose the ones that give charges and all... but once I'll get to a encounters qith multiple ads, I'll too change and I'll have to cry. I don't want that.

I think Turalyon's Might is nowhere useful in its current state. Maybe in the PvP grid, then ?
The last tier of retribution paladin is... its deceiving!!! First, look at that flat damage increase! And yet it's the best choice of the three for me! The second do not give haste and it gives a speed buff (rip pursuit of justice) for 3 HoPo ? Hell no. The third and last one is a bloody channeled ability o.O I know people like to call us mageladin but that's because with our talent we could spend or HoPo in doing damages with word of glory (also gone... T_T). I'm not gonna channel anything at melee distance for 3 HoPo, that's even worst than waiting for my cds...

Well, all that is my opinion. I don't wan't to play like that at the next expac. People saying it's too early to tell may be wise, but I hope if we cry enough, they'll drastically change how they are going with this. And I didn't talk about the weapon talent (flaaaat damage increaseeee... ZZzzzzzz)

[Eon Drache]

Beach please.

E4E and HW with Seal of Inquisition aren't options.
Options can't be this retardedly shite.
LoH? Seriously? That desperate to prove your point?
Speed boost? You mean that gutted, raped version of LaotL?
HW heals? DS heals? Now I know you're just piling everything up.
Pah, I won't sully myself with further comments regarding this post.

I simply posted everything

And yes, Holy Wrath and Divine Storm both heal on the alpha. Do I think all that stuff is good? God no. Holy Wrath is a piece of shit that needs to be completely changed. Seal of Light is ok-ish. Its just another Inquisition. But I never minded it. Don't like Seraphim, though. Eye for an Eye could be fun in PvP.

Some changes I think would be cool would be Zeal also increasing attack speed by 20%.

I'm not focusing on numbers right now because the numbers aren't final. To say "But it only does this much" is a pointless argument at this point. It isn't even in beta. I feel like you guys are simply nitpicking because it seems to be the trend every expansion where everyone bitches about the numbers and what's good and bad based on that. And this isn't just to the person I'm quoting but the people after. Why say "It heals for next to nothing" when we don't know how much it will heal for.

Also, note; Im talking from a PvE standpoint. We have an entirely separate talent system for PvP that no one has touched on. And I assume, based on the OP that the post wasn't for PvP or the "No hammer of Wrath" argument should be void as Hammer of Reckoning IS Hammer of Wrath just changed and probably not final. Like a lot of things aren't final. If you are talking PvP than why say "raped version of LaotL" when Long arm of the law is STILL IN THE GAME IN LEGION.

[Lumineus]

It has potential. Looking forward to spamming swirly hammers again for the first time since pre-MoP. Last talent row is shite and needs a complete re-do, though.

[Deleted]

Trying to get into alpha myself but so far I've noticed couple of things. Bear in mind, I'll be mostly speaking from PvE perspective.

I do agree that T1 talents should be a multiclick gapclosers minus Consecration. As the ideas mentioned here, 2nd click on ES to instantly finalize the DoT and port to the target. That would solve the single target fights with movement components and give us a reliable single-target gap closing. And no Storm, not every class has to have a gapclose on 15 seconds cd. Planning ahead the use of semilong-cd abilities should be a thing. I find TM pretty ok in current state, but the damage consumption could be added. Like, imagine if TM's blade is still on the ground it ticks damage (potentially crit) but teleporting to it should instantly apply to base value of accumulated remaining ticks. Consecration looks fine, a stationary multi-target talent. A thing I would add here is make Ret use Consecrator glyph.

In the case of T2 it's too early to say due to balance issues which are still ahead of us but generally I like the idea. I find the % increase from The Fires of Justice actually ok as long as damage is equal between TFoJ and CF in the course of the fight. Not every talent has to change the base ability. On the other hand, not every talent should be a flat % increase. Zeal looks ok but instead of attack speed I would gut the numbers and add a haste buff to further lower the cooldown of Zeal, among others. So it actually stays true to it's name, Zeal.

T3 looks solid as well. FoJ will naturally become the go-to talent. Repentance however, should in my opinion be instant and on a bit longer cooldown. The biggest change I'd make here is to Blinding Light. Blind won't do much in PvE environment so at least a glyph to make it a shorter duration knockdown would be amazing. Mini Dragon Roar. Oh look, actual utility when you have waves of adds to control.

My only grudge with T4 is that Virtue's Blade is another % increase. That's just cheap. Instead, I'd much rather see it replaced with a slightly altered Blade of Light from Artifact. That would fill in the choice for players who want this slow, HARD hitting and RNG dependent playstyle. Want a faster and more reliable rotation? Go Blade of Wrath.

In T5 I'd love to see a change to Judgment of the Bold. For instance, make it a 2-charge system to combat the clearly OP Mass Judgment.

T6 hmm. Divine Steed clearly doesn't fight the defensive row so I'm unsure what the fuck they've been smoking. If DSteed were to become baseline, that middle slot would be perfect for Divine Protection. Not baseline anymore but still a very powerful defensive option.

Lastly, T7. Fuck me. I'd actually be good with Final Verdict if aside from damage buff it also empowered our DS like currently on live. Having 90% mastery and 31% crit I just love to bomb the adds with EmpDS. I hope it stays and that's the place where it belongs - AoE/Cleave centered finisher talent. Seal of Light - I dig the idea but the change I'd make here is make our autos become unmitigated holy damage (possibly scaling with mastery furtherly) for the duration of the buff. Then the attack speed build would make a lot more sense. Oh and Holy Wrath is dope as fuck if the damage is well tuned. It would be a niche talent for fights where we can't dump HoPo. Like currently on Iskar when you skip third Phantasmal and just nuke the boss from the ledge, it's so frustrating to build HoPo with HoW/J/Exo only to dump it on WoG for shit heal. HW would fit here perfectly.

That's it for now regarding talents. I will definitely give it way more thought if I manage to get access.

But I want to talk about one more issue, one that's here on Paladin forums. You people are such fucking cry babies. Dear Uther in heavens above. You QQ and drown in tears like a 10 year old raped by an old pedo. But it's fine, I understand some people like Storm can only see the world in negative and thank god I can just block such shitposts. But to have the fucking audacity to ridicule and disapprove every single post that has a shimmer of realistic or ,god forbid, positive thinking at the same time NEVER giving a counterargument that's actually constructive. What the fuck. With that attitude, no wonder we will go through another beta without significant changes. Because why in world would Blizz listen to posts that don't propose A COMPROMISE but instead contain lists of the same demands over and over without giving it a broader thought. People, "we need a 15 seconds unlimited range gapcloser because otherwise we are trash and other melees have it" is not a constructive argument.

I don't fully agree with what Reg says in the mobility thread but he at least grasps the idea that we want to leave the beta balanced, not retardedly OP so we get hammerfucked with the first balance patch for half of the expansion. I'd rather be mediocre at start and thanks to scaling and skill outperform other specs as the expansion progresses than be bonkers OP for the first 2 months then get buttfucked by nerfs because someone WILL cry about it on official forums.
Oh and before you start to claw my face with arguments like "it's been like this every beta, stop being so foolish duuuuh", don't do that. I have paid close attention to every expack development for ret since Oct 16, 2006 and it didn't make me a grumpy person unwilling to try having a civilized discussion with Blizz devs. The fact that Celestalon proved so many times that he's either incompetent as fuck or just doesn't care about ret is whole other story.

[Rampant Rabbit]

I currently love retri as it is in WoD. Can anyone tell me how much would actually change between the current Retribution build to the Legion build?

[Morally Grey Storm]

Am I disapproving " realistic " posts?
God forbid someone has critical approach to the God's work that Blizzard engage themselves with when finely tuning Retribution.
God forbid someone being sceptical towards devs who not one but many times failed this spec.
Rose-tint. Is the new normal.

[Arrent]

Right now, I like the potential Legion has shown with a stark deviation from the past. Which is not to say that I didn't like the WoD implementation of Retribution (I quit during Cata and MoP because Retribution felt horrible to me).

However, L45, L90, and L100 talents all need need do-overs in my mind. Paladin's L45 tier is effectively crappier than it is on Live. Repentance and Blinding Light are as bad as they are on like because they're unchanged. FoJ is actually nerfed for Holy unless you time Judgement immediately after using FoJ AND exactly on cooldown for the next 2 casts. Otherwise, you elongate the cooldown beyond it's current 30 seconds. For Ret, FoJ is slightly better if you have 100% uptime or near it.

L90 is just strangely put together. No clear purpose and it's effectiveness seems really lackluster.

L100 is just awkward. Seal of Light shouldn't exist. Stop cramming these HoPo based self buffs down our throats. Holy Wrath could be good if a.) we can move while channeling it (like FoF) and b.) it's baseline damage (IE w/o the stun modifier) is good enough to compete with a 15% stronger TV on top of losing a potential 1-3 HoPo during the channeling (due to using generators + conviction procs).

[mindw0rk]

I didnt play ret before but lurking through talents and artifact traits I dont see much to complain about. The class looks really strong with sick AoE dmg, flash of heal that can be specced to do 1200% spell power heal in less then 1.5 seconds is amazing and it has alot of buttons to press too compared to other classes. Im actually considering to main it in Legion. My only concern is lack of protection against casters burst. If youre locked in holy during burst, you're pretty much screwed

[Triggered Fridgekin]

One of the few things Warlords did right was creating a very entertaining and engaging Retribution whack-a-mole system so to see it being cut in favor of more traditional rotations/priority system which looks like a ripped off version of a warrior is a little discouraging along with an AOE talent system where half of those talents should be baseline. Also, what's up with buffing white damage through attack speed? What's up with the stupid Blessing buffs? Why the hell do we have a Colossus Smash-like (de)buff?

Overall, very lackluster and boring so here's to hoping for some incredible changes.

[Wrecktangle]

I feel like Ret hasn't even been worked on yet.

1) "We don't want Ret's to have a ton of ranged attacks". Yet we still have a ton of ranged attacks?

2) "We're getting rid of seals because they don't add gameplay value". Yet we get talents to buff our attack speed (note not haste)? That doesn't make sense.

3) If you want on demand reliable AOE you have to sacrifice your single target output for it and spec into it.

4) "Colossus Smash was a bad gameplay idea". Gives Ret's a colossus smash effect on Judgment.

5) "We ran out of ideas for Ret, so just make 1/3 of their talent tree flat % increases". It's ok we won't notice.

6) "Rebuke needs a unique animation". How about a bitch slap? You know because a holy warrior would resort to that in battle...

7) "Ret needs a gap closer bad, so they can at least be somewhat normalized with other melee. It's cool give them this sick 3 click toggle gap closer. Just to make sure it's balanced though give it a long cd, and make sure the DPS portion of it gets cancelled if they use the mobility part. It wouldn't be fair to give both to a Ret."

8) "Let's bring Holy Wrath back. Make it a channeled useless ability that does bonus damage on stunned mobs. There's going to be a lot of stunning of mobs in dungeons/raids all day long."

9) "We know that Ret's have been plagued with RNG, so considering they're used to it, why don't we give them RNG holy power generation, and make some of their abilities proc multiple times too. Just make sure that if an ability can hit 3 times, it needs to hit for less than hammer of the righteous in case they get a triple proc."

Do I need to continue?

[Eon Drache]

Am I disapproving " realistic " posts?
God forbid someone has critical approach to the God's work that Blizzard engage themselves with when finely tuning Retribution.
God forbid someone being sceptical towards devs who not one but many times failed this spec.
Rose-tint. Is the new normal.

I notice you didn't even comment on the fact that Long arm of the law is still in the alpha. thoughts?

[Vintersol]

6) "Rebuke needs a unique animation". How about a bitch slip? You know because a holy warrior would resort to that in battle...

This "unique" animation is basically the shieldslam animation without a shield.

[Morally Grey Storm]

I notice you didn't even comment on the fact that Long arm of the law is still in the alpha. thoughts?

And why should I comment on this warped, twisted and desecrated version of LAotL?
Its shite.
Will be shite.
Is it what you want to hear?
Should I carefully explain why, to you?
It will fall on deaf ears.
I won't bother.

[Eon Drache]

And why should I comment on this warped, twisted and desecrated version of LAotL?
Its shite.
Will be shite.
Is it what you want to hear?
Should I carefully explain why, to you?
It will fall on deaf ears.
I won't bother.

Long arm of the Law, as it is on live is still in Legion. It was actually buffed from 45% to 50%.

[Morally Grey Storm]

Long arm of the Law, as it is on live is still in Legion. It was actually buffed from 45% to 50%.

an hint: Judgement's CD come Legion.
an another hint: come LEgion Judgement also doubles as damage buff, Collossus Smash-like, which leaves you with very great choice - either chase down or do damage.

[Eon Drache]

an hint: Judgement's CD come Legion.
an another hint: come LEgion Judgement also doubles as damage buff, Collossus Smash-like, which leaves you with very great choice - either chase down or do damage.

And we are getting other speed buffs to compensate and CD time probably isn't final. I don't see Judgement retaining a 12 second CD going to live. I literally feel like I'm being trolled at this point.

[Morally Grey Storm]

And we are getting other speed buffs to compensate

No we are not.
We are getting a few options, pathetic at large so to speak.
Divine Steed is overnerfed Speed of Light, the one which gives bonus runspeed when under HoF is shite galore.
Tyruayilions Might of Might is yet another can of sea men.

and CD time probably isn't final.

wishful thinking at it's finest.
Keep it up champ.

I don't see Judgement retaining a 12 second CD going to live.

Care to elaborate?
Why would they reduce CD for an already powerful damage buff which can double/triple as a sprint and a resourse generator?
Not to mention it's cd is already reduced via haste.

I literally feel like I'm being trolled at this point.

Couldn't care less about what you feel .

[Sett]

I'm not too impressed with what we got visually. As for damage and abilities go, it's still too early to tell but I'm kinda meh about what I've seen.

[Deleted]

I feel like ES/Flurry/BoV/JotB/FV has a very pleasing rotation with a relatively high precision requirement - quite similar to SoO Fury which in my opinion is one of the best-designed specs to see the light of day. Several of the talents aren't necessarily mechanically interesting, but they synergize well with the effects of Judgment and further incentivize dumping HoPo in the Judgment window.

Some of the talents like SoL very clearly need a revision, however.