[Poll] Do you like the (current) Legion version of ret?

[polonadis]

Having played ret for ~6+ years i absolutely DESPISE the new design and can't see myself playing this spec AT ALL with the useless skills they added and atrocious rotation/talent choices they made. 10 sec ES with 10 sec cd, really? 10 sec inquisition ON THE TARGET, yes that sounds like a GREAT IDEA... channeled holy wrath? REALLY? random holy power gains, blade of wrath that does nothing to meaningfully contribute and make the rotation interesting, shortening the range of all skills, removing hammer of wrath... all i can see are TERRIBLE choices and nothing that i like, maybe except the judgement debuffing the target for holy damage as i once advocated a similar change, would rather see it on exorcism though.. what are your thoughts on the matter?

[DrMcNinja]

I'm going to go with too early to tell. But surely some people I will not name will rush to this thread and call me out for having just a little bit of faith (in the light).

[polonadis]

i'd love to say it's `too early to tell` but seeing no changes at all except some number tweaking and having played it on the alpha i see no hope for the spec, as the rotation is so bad and clunky a few small changens would not be enough to help it and chances of a meaningful overhaul are pretty slim at best

[Aggrophobic]

The changes do not look as cool as what some other classes get like balance druid or furry warrior (imo) but then again, I'm no fan of the WoD version of ret either so I might not be a good jufge.

You do get a charge though, right? Guess it's something, but less RNG would be great and getting holypower at random seem like a silly way to go.

[Pheros]

I'll likely adapt like most pally lovers do.

That being said, I'm just hoping we stack up and stay in the decent spot we are now. If we end up performing like we did in T16, I'll be sad.

[polonadis]

if you mean the skill that you need to click, place a circle on the ground, throw a sword (that does AOE damage like light's hammer now), then press it again cancelling the aoe damage effectively nullifying the dps gain of the row to charge to the circle's location then yes - you do get a ridiculously clunky, dps-negative "charge"

[Morally Grey Storm]

Very fething much.
Saves me trouble playing it.

[Deleted]

Too early to tell for me. I hate, with a burning passion, resource gained based on RNG (or wings gaming resources every couple of seconds). RNG to use abilities (such as 4PC for prot this tier) is fun. I strongly doubt I will be DPS pally at all in legion. Tank all the way! Well as long as it doesn't turn out to feel like current warrior tank I will be very happy.

[Deleted]

I don't like the changes they made for Legion.
I mean being a melee spec isn't a problem... It's cool to be melee once again but without the necessary tools it's stupid.

[Ashelorh]

Waaaaaaaay too slow paced without the fast paced talents. Not enough mobility. Boring left side of talents.

[Demsi]

Kinda early to tell, but it does not look good

[Ryuji]

Preface: Heroic/somewhat mythic raider in current content, though early mythic but still. Hooray for opinions. Also I spell Judgement with an extra e. I can't spell it without it, feels weird to me.

As funky as Divine Purpose was, I kind of miss it. My only complaints about Ret at the moment(I don't PvP, keep this in mind), is that I feel...different without Hammer of Wrath and I am *not* a fan of the "You do x% more damage" talents. Lazy and uninspired when I look over at other spec's talent trees(though some others are in fairly rough shape as well such as frost DK)

First tier: ES on a 10-sec CD, Turalyon's Might, and Consecration. I don't mind ES being on a shorter CD since there feels like there are a few gaps in our rotation now, though Idunno how I'll feel about it in a raid setting. TM seems...meh overall, and Consecration's a boring pick(though a welcome sight...missed it) since Prot gets it baseline.

Second Tier: Fires of Jusice - CS hits 25% harder, Crusader's Flurry - 3 charges of CS, and Zeal - a cleaving CS. Fires of Justice is just boring and little thought was put into it. 3 charges of CS could be useful for filling rotation gaps or dumping them all in a Judgement window, and the cleaving CS feels needed since we don't have seals anymore, though the white hit attack speed seems mostly useless. Feels like it'd be better if it was haste, then again that would be the go-to talent regardless I'd think.

Third Tier: CC stuff, Fist of Justice making Hammer of Justice shorter CD, Repentance and Blinding Light. No comment really, same stuff as current for the most part, though RIP those extra 10 yards on HoJ.

Fourth Tier: Virtue's Blade - BoJ hits 25% harder, Blade of Wrath - BoJ on shorter CD, less damage, and Divine Hammer - AoE BoJ. Virtue's Blade is just like Fire's of Justice, boring and little thought put into it. BoW could be useful if you want more buttons to press, and in the long run can generate more HP over a fight potentially, RNG gods willing. Divine Hammer feels like it does meh damage but more cleave would be welcomed, though they should fix the HP generation of it methinks. 1 HP(or potentially 2 I guess) over 8 seconds seems...long.

Fifth Tier: Judgements of the Bold - 10% more holy damage taken with Judge's effect, The Might of Virtue - Judge gives 1 HP, and Mass Judgement- place holy damage taken effect on every target nearby. JotB feels...meh just like the other talents that increase damage. Virtue...BLIZZARD PLEASE. Had Judge give 1 HP per use for 2 expansions now, why take that away? Makes no sense. Needs less RNG dependency on BoJ and more consistency. Then there's Mass Judge, I like this, feels like it'd be handy for AoE, and in general since it'll help keep the holy damage debuff uptime basically 100% of the time.

Sixth Tier: Blaze of Light - Super strong FoL, Divine Steed - CRUSADER PONY ,Eye for an Eye - 3 HP cost ability that can only be used if it procs from being hit. This whole tier is weird to be honest. BoL heals for A LOT, sure, could be handy but feels out of place. Pony charge is baseline for Prot, same complaint that I mentioned for Consecrate. Should be baseline imo, though I do like having access to it I suppose. Then EfaE. Seems mostly useful in soloing/PvP unless you could cheese with it in some encounters.

Seventh Tier: Final Verdict - TV hits 15% harder, Seal of Light - attack speed and movement speed buff for 30 sec, 3 HP cost, and Holy Wrath - channeled ability that hits harder on stunned targets, also heals. FV...seriously Blizz, what's with the boring and uninspired talents? Thought that was a no-no in design, nothing that's static and just % damage increases. SoL, seems meh since it's attack speed which means white swings(again, without seals to help with the damage output) and the side-bonus of movement speed since PoJ, LaotL and Speed of Light were taken out. Then Holy Wrath, seems only really useful in PvP, though it hits like a wet noodle, or I guess in clutch solo situations. Feels out of place.

My major problem with the talents for Ret currently are basically the % damage increase talents in most of the left rows, Consecration and Divine Steed not being baseline, the only movement speed talent being a pseudo-Inquisition that feels mostly useless and Judgement not giving 1 HP baseline.

What I would change to fix it: Every single one of the % damage ones gone. Some ideas being like, replace Fires of Justice with something that causes CS to build a stacking dot on the enemy, like Censure, but make said dot hit hard enough to be worth using since CS can't be spammed if you pick the talent. and make it worth only using on one enemy or maybe 2. Make the BoJ one have a chance to reset the cooldown on BoJ, sure it's RNG but it's better than just flat extra damage. For the FV one, could reincorporate the damage bonus it currently gives DS on live or something. Just...something besides the way they currently are now in Legion. Then as far as the attack speed talents are concerned, could change them to haste but I'm unsure if that would basically make them required or not...probably would.

In terms of movement, making Pursuit of Justice baseline at the very least would be better than nothing. Or be like how it was in Cata where you had both PoJ and Long Arm. Turalyon's Might still feels weird at best.

TL;DR: The entire left side of the trees for % damage increases needs to be re-worked, like make CS give a strong stacking DoT, or BoJ having a 20% chance to reset itself kinda like Fury Warrior T17 bonus for Raging Blow was, etc.

[Eon Drache]

I actually really love retribution in Legion so far. It didn't really take long to get used to the new spells. If you go in and just try it at 100 with the pre acquired gear then yes. The rotation SUCKS. Everything has a fairly long CD. However, haste affects everything pretty well. We still have plenty of range on some of our abilities. Blade of Wrath, Judgement, Execution Sentence and Wake of Ashes are all ranged abilities. Making Crusader Strike and Templar's Verdict our only melee attacks.

Crusader Flurry and taking up Blade of Wrath or Divine Hammer actually makes the rotation pretty smooth. There is also a clear difference between Execution Sentence/Consecration and Inquisition/Seraphim. These don't really build up for holy power, they don't cost holy power. So you have to manage a debuff basically. It is no different than just hitting another dps button on CD. That's like complaining you have to hit DS/TV when you have 5 hopo.

Building HoPo is actually pretty smooth as well. You use TV/DS at 4 Holy power rather than 5. Or at 5 if you get a proc at 3 Holy power. Judgement can be cast even at 5 holy power without going over. And it's a ranged ability. All of our abilites outside of Blade of Justice does something interesting, too. We can have Crusader Strike increase attack speed. Judgement applies a debuff that we can make longer or increase the damage.

I miss Divine Protection, but Shield of Vengeance is a really nice replacement for it. Not only will it absorb some damage but it also fits retribution much better than Divine Protection. It redirects the damage absorbed to our current target. Hand of Light is also a decent survival CD. Divine Shield also doesn't cut our damage when we use it so no reason to cancel it early as ret.

Now, none of us know what our dps will be like as thats not even close to being ready for discussion but as far as retribution goes I love it. Nice survivability tools, lots of mobility and utility, and our rotation is smooth and flashy!

[Morally Grey Storm]

No options with HoPo
No instaheal
No heal spells besides one
"lots " of mobility
Less team utility
No damage reduction
As far as Retribution goes I love it

[deadmau]

Ret Paladin since 2004. I will no longer be playing Ret.

[Eon Drache]

No options with HoPo
No instaheal
No heal spells besides one
"lots " of mobility
Less team utility
No damage reduction
As far as Retribution goes I love it

You can talent into options for Holy Power
Divine Storm and Holy Wrath will both be able to heal. Also, lay on Hands. Hand of Light also heals for 30-70% over 10 seconds.
2 talented charges, 1 talented speed boost.
Blessing of Kings is Sacred Shield. Blessing of Might is a damage buff. Blessing of Wisdom is a mana restore and a heal both built into 1! You also get Blessing of Freedom. Blessing of Protection.
Shield of Vengeance and Divine Shield are both damage reductions. Ashbringer also has a built in talent for damage reduction.

[Morally Grey Storm]

You can talent into options for Holy Power
Divine Storm and Holy Wrath will both be able to heal. Also, lay on Hands. Hand of Light also heals for 30-70% over 10 seconds.
2 talented charges, 1 talented speed boost.
Blessing of Kings is Sacred Shield. Blessing of Might is a damage buff. Blessing of Wisdom is a mana restore and a heal both built into 1! You also get Blessing of Freedom. Blessing of Protection.
Shield of Vengeance and Divine Shield are both damage reductions

A convincing rebuttal, sure as sure.
DS is an damage immunity and SoV is an absorb.
Damage reductions look like abilities which reduce incoming damage, like ironbark, divine protection, shieldwall.

[Eon Drache]

A convincing rebuttal, sure as sure.
DS is an damage immunity and SoV is an absorb.
Damage reductions look like abilities which reduce incoming damage, like ironbark, divine protection, shieldwall.

Divine Shield is a 100% damage reduction. We can still do anything while inside it and in Legion there is no 50% damage penalty for the player.
Shield of Vengeance being an absorb still reduces the damage our health takes.

I get that they aren't "Damage reduction" abilities but they essentially function the same. All 3 (Immunity, absorb, Damage reduction) decrease the damage that we take during their active buffs.

[Morally Grey Storm]

You can talent into options for Holy Power
Divine Storm and Holy Wrath will both be able to heal. Also, lay on Hands. Hand of Light also heals for 30-70% over 10 seconds.
2 talented charges, 1 talented speed boost.
Blessing of Kings is Sacred Shield. Blessing of Might is a damage buff. Blessing of Wisdom is a mana restore and a heal both built into 1! You also get Blessing of Freedom. Blessing of Protection.
Shield of Vengeance and Divine Shield are both damage reductions. Ashbringer also has a built in talent for damage reduction.

Beach please.

E4E and HW with Seal of Inquisition aren't options.
Options can't be this retardedly shite.
LoH? Seriously? That desperate to prove your point?
Speed boost? You mean that gutted, raped version of LaotL?
HW heals? DS heals? Now I know you're just piling everything up.
Pah, I won't sully myself with further comments regarding this post.

[lunethzero]

So far the design for ret is looking messy and boring with sluggish downtime. I get the feeling Blizzard has some hate for ret.