When does a refugee become an immigrant?

[Deleted]

I see alot of confusion on this subject. When is a refugee a refugee? And when does he become an immigrant?
Alot of people seem to differ on the subject as a refugee is technically safe as soon as he/she crosses the warzone's border.

So answer me this:
Is a refugee a refugee nomatter where he is, what he does, and how long hes been fleeing?
Is a refugee a refugee when he has the intention to turn home after the war settles?
Is a refugee an immigrant as soon as he chooses to settle in a certain country for life?
Is a refugee actually an immigrant when he chooses to flee further than a reasonable safe zone?

Answering those questions, are the millions of proposed refugees actually refugees or economical immigrants looking for a brighter future? (which is also understandable).

Discuss

[TrumpIsPresident]

A refugee becomes an immigrant when they choose to live in a foreign country on permanent basis and obtain citizenship there.

However the current interchanging use of the words is entirely agenda based.

Labeling refugees as immigrants allows for labeling the opposition to the flawed and dangerous refugee process as being "anti-immigrant" aka racist.


Lets say your grocer was trying to sell you rotten apples.

You would object and not buy it.

Then the grocer would go around telling people you're a fruit hater.

But are you?

No, you just don't want to eat rotten apples.

[Sentynel]

They become (economic) migrants right after they leave the first safe country and head towards Germoney & Sweden & other western countries.

[Collegeguy]

When they flee to a country for economical reasons instead of survival. Bypassing every country not at war.

[Endus]

I see alot of confusion on this subject. When is a refugee a refugee? And when does he become an immigrant?
Alot of people seem to differ on the subject as a refugee is technically safe as soon as he/she crosses the warzone's border.

So answer me this:
Is a refugee a refugee nomatter where he is, what he does, and how long hes been fleeing?
Is a refugee a refugee when he has the intention to turn home after the war settles?
Is a refugee an immigrant as soon as he chooses to settle in a certain country for life?
Is a refugee actually an immigrant when he chooses to flee further than a reasonable safe zone?

Answering those questions, are the millions of proposed refugees actually refugees or economical immigrants looking for a brighter future? (which is also understandable).

Discuss

The 1951 Refugee Convention defines it like this; a refugee is anyone who, "owing to a well-founded fear of being persecuted for reasons of race, religion, nationality, membership of a particular social group or political opinion, is outside the country of his nationality, and is unable to, or owing to such fear, is unwilling to avail himself of the protection of that country."

So to answer your questions, in order;
1> Yes.
2> Yes; it's not just based on active war zones.
3> Yes. Might change if they become citizens of their new country.
4> Yes.

This isn't a new phenomenon. The issues you're raising were never the case, and they're only emerging now due to hostility towards the victims of the violence in Syria.

[Netherspark]

A refugee is a person in need.

People like to call them "immigrants" because it's easier to hate or dismiss them.

[Deleted]

The 1951 Refugee Convention defines it like this; a refugee is anyone who, "owing to a well-founded fear of being persecuted for reasons of race, religion, nationality, membership of a particular social group or political opinion, is outside the country of his nationality, and is unable to, or owing to such fear, is unwilling to avail himself of the protection of that country."

So to answer your questions, in order;
1> Yes.
2> Yes; it's not just based on active war zones.
3> Yes. Might change if they become citizens of their new country.
4> Yes.

This isn't a new phenomenon. The issues you're raising were never the case, and they're only emerging now due to hostility towards the victims of the violence in Syria.

By that definition they can be a refugee here too. Since they get alot of shit for coming here. And how does that apply to the LBGT crowd which is dealing with the same kind of prosecution everywhere?

So you too label refugees as immigrants? Thats what Yes to question 4 basicly is.

I think people dont have hostility towards actual refugees. Nobody in the right minds blames someone from fleeing a warzone.
The hostility comes from them "coincidentally" traveling 4000 miles further than the safe zone to countries with good developped wellfare systems.

[Netherspark]

I think people dont have hostility towards actual refugees. The hostility comes from them "coincidentally" traveling 4000 miles further than the safe zone to countries with good developped wellfare systems.

So they should deliberately choose to live in a worse place, when they have the option of going somewhere better for them?

[apples]

By that definition they can be a refugee here too. Since they get alot of shit for coming here. So you too label refugees as immigrants? Thats what Yes to question 4 basicly is.

I think people dont have hostility towards actual refugees. Nobody in the right minds blames someone from fleeing a warzone.
The hostility comes from them "coincidentally" traveling 4000 miles further than the safe zone to countries with good developped wellfare systems.

hey guys!

i know that weve been basically living off literally nothing for the last 6 months and that we have no money or objects to our names

but lets all walk to germany so we can get 10% more in welfare benefits than this country, 4000 miles closer!

SWEET DEAL GUY

[Deleted]

So they should deliberately choose to live in a worse place, when they have the option of going somewhere better for them?

I'd probably do the same, dont get me wrong. I can't even blame them.
But you shoulnd call em refugees then.

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hey guys!

i know that weve been basically living off literally nothing for the last 6 months and that we have no money or objects to our names

but lets all walk to germany so we can get 10% more in welfare benefits than this country, 4000 miles closer!

SWEET DEAL GUY

Nice try but no. If you think its 10% i urge you to read up a bit on european wellfare systems before trying to meddle in this discussion with false assumptions.

This is for a dutch single mom unemployed with 2 kids:

Bijstandsuitkering: € 960,83
Huurtoeslag: € 238
Zorgtoeslag: € 78,49
Kindgebonden budget: € 406,08
Kinderopvangtoeslag: € 613,10
Kinderbijslag: € 127,76
Totaal: € 2.424,26 a month. Thats net.

Plenty to live off.

[Endus]

By that definition they can be a refugee here too. Since they get alot of shit for coming here. And how does that apply to the LBGT crowd which is dealing with the same kind of prosecution everywhere?

People claim refugee status based on their LGBT status and the hostility towards it in their home nation all the time.

So you too label refugees as immigrants? Thats what Yes to question 4 basicly is.

I'm pointing out that there's no categorical distinction. All refugees are, by definition, immigrants; they are no longer in their home nation, and have moved to another. They are not economic migrants, but that's a completely separate category. And does not mean that refugees are somehow barred from seeking the best economic outcome for themselves and their families, either.

The hostility comes from them "coincidentally" traveling 4000 miles further than the safe zone to countries with good developped wellfare systems.

Because people are inventing a non-rule that has never come up in the past, to manufacture a reason to exclude these people. Refugees have never been required to only travel to the nearest country available.

If there's an issue in the EU, in particular, with refugees avoiding EU regulations on that particular outcome, then that's an internal issue for the EU to deal with. But sailing out of Turkey, and landing on the North coast of Germany, say, would still make Germany their entry point to the EU. Refugee status isn't based on distance from their homeland.

[apples]

I'd probably do the same, dont get me wrong. I can't even blame them.
But you shoulnd call em refugees then.

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Nice try but no. If you think its 10% i urge you to read up a bit on european wellfare systems before trying to meddle in this discussion with false assumptions.

This is for a dutch single mom unemployed with 2 kids:
Alleenstaande bijstandsmoeder met twee kinderen

Bijstandsuitkering: € 960,83

Huurtoeslag: € 238

Zorgtoeslag: € 78,49

Kindgebonden budget: € 406,08

Kinderopvangtoeslag: € 613,10

Kinderbijslag: € 127,76

Totaal: € 2.424,26 a month.

you got me, the difference is 15%

TOTALLY WORTH IT GUYS

[Deleted]

you got me, the difference is 15%

TOTALLY WORTH IT GUYS

Which 2 countries are you comparing? Also you seem to have a stuck capslock button.

[morreant]

The terms aren't mutually exclusive and the poll thus pointless.

[Deleted]

If there's an issue in the EU, in particular, with refugees avoiding EU regulations on that particular outcome, then that's an internal issue for the EU to deal with. But sailing out of Turkey, and landing on the North coast of Germany, say, would still make Germany their entry point to the EU. Refugee status isn't based on distance from their homeland.

True. But it does make it obliviously obvious that they are:
1. Here to stay
2. Here because of the wellfare system they intend to use

Resulting:
1. In mass refugees on wellfare
2. Cost increases for every countries workforce

So why are we(mmo-champ) having constant discussions about those 2 subjects in all threads when even you say its blatantly obvious?

[vindicatorx]

I see alot of confusion on this subject. When is a refugee a refugee? And when does he become an immigrant?
Alot of people seem to differ on the subject as a refugee is technically safe as soon as he/she crosses the warzone's border.

So answer me this:
Is a refugee a refugee nomatter where he is, what he does, and how long hes been fleeing?
Is a refugee a refugee when he has the intention to turn home after the war settles?
Is a refugee an immigrant as soon as he chooses to settle in a certain country for life?
Is a refugee actually an immigrant when he chooses to flee further than a reasonable safe zone?

Answering those questions, are the millions of proposed refugees actually refugees or economical immigrants looking for a brighter future? (which is also understandable).

Discuss

Hmm another self explanatory question from this op?

A Refugee is defined as: a person who has been forced to leave their country in order to escape war, persecution, or natural disaster.

A immigrant is defined as: a person who comes to live permanently in a foreign country.

Do you see the difference now? Now to answer your questions using these definitions.

Is a refugee a refugee no matter where he is, what he does, and how long hes been fleeing?

Yes

Is a refugee a refugee when he has the intention to turn home after the war settles?

Yes

Is a refugee an immigrant as soon as he chooses to settle in a certain country for life?

Yes

Is a refugee actually an immigrant when he chooses to flee further than a reasonable safe zone?

No, they still qualify as a refugee as they left to avoid something.

[Endus]

True. But it does make it obliviously obvious that they are:
1. Here to stay
2. Here because of the wellfare system they intend to use

And? Neither of those make them not-refugees. That's the part that's made-up and has no basis whatsoever.

Hell, while Canada's late to the party (and before anyone says it, I'm not a Harper supporter, and it was Harper's government that choked off our refugee intake during his leadership; this is one of many things I had issue with), we're pretty darned clear that 1> we hope they're here to stay, and 2> we're going to do everything we can to make them comfortable.

[Deleted]

No, they still qualify as a refugee as they left to avoid something.

If i claim to flee my country with no way to check where i am from, and travel 5000 miles away "coincidentally" to the country where i get the most benefits, am i a refugee?

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And? Neither of those make them not-refugees. That's the part that's made-up and has no basis whatsoever.

Then why are the same people and media denying that over and over and over and over?

[apples]

Which 2 countries are you comparing? Also you seem to have a stuck capslock button.

i guess sarcasm is just gonna go over your head.

so comparing one of the, if not the worst welfare system in EU, italy, to netherlands,

the difference in unemployment is 40% to 75% which falls to 70% after 2 months

a difference of around 85%

or a whopping 800 euros a month

again, totally worth travelling that extra 4k miles, on foot, to earn your 800-2400 euros

amirite or amirite

[Deleted]

When is a refugee a refugee? And when does he become an immigrant?

Then a person claiming refugee status, it upp to the country the person is in to recognizing it or deny it.

Then a person apply for residence permits or similar permits etc that alow the person to live legally in the land.