Flare and disengage in our main rotation...

[Deleted]

There is a reason. You can still pick focusing shot if you enjoy the gameplay more. It doesn't matter which one does more damage.

You can also wear ilvl 30 because you like the look of it, but thanks god, blizzard gave us the transmog option.
As I said, both casuals and Hardcore raiders want to beat content they play. Not taking skill A if it's clearly stronger than skill B will only make your live harder. The goal should be to create situations where either Skill A or Skill B shines, or even better, situations were every skill shines but in their own way.

If Skill A is always better than Skill B, it's not a choice. It's not a choice if someones asks you "would you rather have 100$ or only 50$, for free - it's a present, I'm filthy rich". It's a given you'd take the 100$ and not the 50$ because you like the picture on that bill so much.

[Daetur]

You can also wear ilvl 30 because you like the look of it, but thanks god, blizzard gave us the transmog option.
As I said, both casuals and Hardcore raiders want to beat content they play. Not taking skill A if it's clearly stronger than skill B will only make your live harder. The goal should be to create situations where either Skill A or Skill B shines, or even better, situations were every skill shines but in their own way.

If Skill A is always better than Skill B, it's not a choice. It's not a choice if someones asks you "would you rather have 100$ or only 50$, for free - it's a present, I'm filthy rich". It's a given you'd take the 100$ and not the 50$ because you like the picture on that bill so much.

No, it's a choice. Outside of the small fraction of people who are pushing hard progression, choosing a talent or glyph because it makes the class more fun to play, but may not provide the highest theoretical throughput, is absolutely a choice, and one I have made on a number of alts, who I play casually.

If someone pugs normal HFC on their druid, and their group wipes, I guarantee you it's because of failure to perform mechanics correctly, not because of the single-digit percent DPS loss from a taking, for example, the Savage Roar glyph or Claws of Shrivallah talent because that person finds a playstaye where they don't have to maintain Savage Roar or manage Bloodtalons more enjoyable to play.

Your "$50 or $100" example isn't comparable, because there are differences in what you're receiving with talent choices beyond raw numbers- enjoyment. Somewhat more analogous would be "would you rather to do a job you dislike and get $100, or play a videogame you like and get $90?" There will absolutely be people who value their personal enjoyment over a 'numbers gain,' and the numbers difference from talent to talent is not going to be a margin of 50%. Even $100 versus $90 is probably overstating the difference between individual talent choices.

[Pyrophobia]

I get that a lot of people cried about WoD Sniper Training, but many more enjoyed planning movement, improving as you learned fights. The idea of the careful sniper though is getting replaced by the jumping retard. Aside from flavor, this takes away a movement ability and turns it into a very clunky DPS cd, and I have no problem imagining encounter designers not remotely accounting for this.

This is so true As i said that old huntard joke for jumping in 1 place to get a dps boost seems like the root of the idea of this kill flip madness.

[Kwaai]

No, it's a choice. Outside of the small fraction of people who are pushing hard progression, choosing a talent or glyph because it makes the class more fun to play, but may not provide the highest theoretical throughput, is absolutely a choice, and one I have made on a number of alts, who I play casually.

If someone pugs normal HFC on their druid, and their group wipes, I guarantee you it's because of failure to perform mechanics correctly, not because of the single-digit percent DPS loss from a taking, for example, the Savage Roar glyph or Claws of Shrivallah talent because that person finds a playstaye where they don't have to maintain Savage Roar or manage Bloodtalons more enjoyable to play.

Your "$50 or $100" example isn't comparable, because there are differences in what you're receiving with talent choices beyond raw numbers- enjoyment. Somewhat more analogous would be "would you rather to do a job you dislike and get $100, or play a videogame you like and get $90?" There will absolutely be people who value their personal enjoyment over a 'numbers gain,' and the numbers difference from talent to talent is not going to be a margin of 50%. Even $100 versus $90 is probably overstating the difference between individual talent choices.

I think a lot of people get enjoyment out of trying to maximize their dps. They get relatively more enjoyment out of min maxing than in using Exotic Munitions rather than Lone Wolf. They'll pick Lone Wolf because it does more dps (and they enjoy min maxing), but they'll wish everything was equal so they wouldn't have to make any sacrifice. So yeah, it's a choice, but it forces people to make decisions about where to give up fun. This is a game and that shouldn't happen.

[Deleted]

No, it's a choice. Outside of the small fraction of people who are pushing hard progression, choosing a talent or glyph because it makes the class more fun to play, but may not provide the highest theoretical throughput, is absolutely a choice, and one I have made on a number of alts, who I play casually.

You are either totally unaware about how hard Normal/HC is for most people or you don't like to see the truth. There are more than enough people that use the theoretical best build and still arn't able to beat content unless they start outgearing it by half a tier. Lowering your DPS just won't do, no matter how fun it is.
It doesn't even matter here, because it's not "fun" if I have to gimp myself to play what I like. The problem is that the talent you consider "fun" isn't on par with the rest of the set, for absolutely no reason...and that has to change.

And you do realize that if everyone disregards DPS and chooses the poorest DPS choice, you are laking more than just a few %?
I'm a pretty good player, above average at least and I raided with 2 people that, along with me, were "server first" raiders during 2 full expansions and since we arn't "into" WoW anymore we decided to play it casually with friends. People arn't playing 100% perfect, most of them do 20-50% less dps than they theoretically can, losing out on DPS even more means that they can't beat content.

Fight durations are up to 30% higher than they are on a different day with different people from time to time, that basically translates to a fight being a lot harder too.

We had problems with 10-12 people killing that Highmaul Endboss add wave fast enough in both Normal and later HC, getting blackhand down fast enough, getting furnace adds down fast enough. Basically everything depends on how well you can deal damage. So they clearly didn't have a choice but to choose *that* talent which is clearly stronger than the rest if they wanted to beat content.

[Deleted]

Since 99% of the players (nice number, would love that source) doesn't care at all about talents, why waste development time of having them at all and not just ship classes as-is, no changing of gameplay or customizability with specs.

I didn't say they don't care, quite the opposite, and that's the issue. I don't even the next line, you are reading too much into it and looking for something that isn't there.

Maybe I overstated the number and the actual reality is 99,5%. Don't remember the official numbers of mythic race raiders.

You are either totally unaware about how hard Normal/HC is for most people or you don't like to see the truth.

That's my point exactly. People think it does matter, when in fact it does not. The difference is negligible. If you happen to die on a 1% hp normal boss, your raid has different issues.

[mhdoe]

Or maybe you should learn how to play you spec and use cooldown's when they are going to do the most good or are needed not just whack whatever button lights up.

[Deleted]

That's my point exactly. People think it does matter, when in fact it does not. The difference is negligible. If you happen to die on a 1% hp normal boss, your raid has different issues.

So what?
How is the difference negligible. In T18 you'll end up doing 20% less damage, 90k vs 70k depending on how much you want to fuck up your talent choices.

[Azortharion]

[Sencha]

Can someone from alpha confirm that they have been both removed in last build?

Thanks.

[Googolplex]

50% might seem like a lot, but don't forget we're losing our unobstructed mobility. While jumping back we won't be able to shoot. While going back to our spot, we won't be able to shoot. Our uptime will be significantly lower with this talent :P

You don't jump AWAY from the Sherlock.

[KingdomOblivion]

Can someone from alpha confirm that they have been both removed in last build?

Thanks.

Yes they have been removed.

These are the new talents: http://legion.wowhead.com/talent-cal...r/marksmanship

[Deleted]

I wanna give my input as well
So about the Disengage talent. Not much i can say here...., i dont like it because it makes us choose between DPS and movement/survivability. A good raider will have to choose survivability, but he will be crying inside for all the lost damage.

HOWEVER:
The Flare talent looks REALLY AWESOME to me! I see that as a great AoE cooldown. Right now only BM has a AoE CD but not really , its more like a single target one that has a strong AoE aspect as well. It all depends on how they tune it. Hopefully it will be a minor dps increase on pure ST fights but it will really shine on spawning adds phases or just AOE in general. I personally hope that they bring it back, but maybe thats because i have good tanks in my guild. I guess people will just have to be more careful where they place it so they dont have to rely on good tanks.

[Pengalor]

I wanna give my input as well
So about the Disengage talent. Not much i can say here...., i dont like it because it makes us choose between DPS and movement/survivability. A good raider will have to choose survivability, but he will be crying inside for all the lost damage.

HOWEVER:
The Flare talent looks REALLY AWESOME to me! I see that as a great AoE cooldown. Right now only BM has a AoE CD but not really , its more like a single target one that has a strong AoE aspect as well. It all depends on how they tune it. Hopefully it will be a minor dps increase on pure ST fights but it will really shine on spawning adds phases or just AOE in general. I personally hope that they bring it back, but maybe thats because i have good tanks in my guild. I guess people will just have to be more careful where they place it so they dont have to rely on good tanks.

There's nothing to give input on anymore, they were both removed. Neither of them really had a place anyway, they made no sense and were ultimately too clunky to be included in a rotation.

[Pyrophobia]

There's nothing to give input on anymore, they were both removed. Neither of them really had a place anyway, they made no sense and were ultimately too clunky to be included in a rotation.

Yes, yet so many people were looking forward for them