1. #1421
    Quote Originally Posted by Philondra View Post
    Regardless of where our AOE damage ends up falling vis-a-vis Heart Strike and Blood Boil, it feels more satisfying/rewarding to get off a 5-man Heart Strike than it does simply pressing Blood Boil. Getting off the massive Heart Strike means you made sure to keep the runes free during Death and Decay, kept the mobs bunched up, and targeted the right one to make sure you got the full cleave. With Blood Boil, we just press it on cooldown whenever there is something in our general vicinity. Yay. It's an important tool to have, just not a very exciting one, and our biggest rewards should come from the ability with the most setup.
    I'll have zero issues moving BB damage to HS. That's where I WANT my damage to come from.

    Unfortunately we have to hope that Blizz not only revert our HS nerfs, but hopefully buff HS damage to help compensate our massive DPS loss.

  2. #1422
    I'm not seeing any MASSIVE dps loss. You keep calling a 39% nerf 50%, and cry about it in the exact same way around multiple forum topics and even repeating it in this one over and over.

    It is getting old very fast.

    Yes, HS could use a bit of love to reward better planning and play, but Blizzard does not want that sort of complexity to widen gap between bad and good play too much.

    Expect changes to talents instead. Their mantra for Legion is simple and complex talents in same tier in which using the complex one yields marginal benefits.
    Quote Originally Posted by a wiser man
    Tanking should not exist just to let healers and dps have fun.
    Quote Originally Posted by Coramac
    If a monk has 200k DTPS and 200k HPS in hots on him, does anyone hear when he purifies?
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  3. #1423
    Quote Originally Posted by redfella View Post
    ...

    Yes, HS could use a bit of love to reward better planning and play, but Blizzard does not want that sort of complexity to widen gap between bad and good play too much.

    Expect changes to talents instead. Their mantra for Legion is simple and complex talents in same tier in which using the complex one yields marginal benefits.
    Personally I liked having complexity to widen a gap between good and bad play.
    Before, you could be a scrub tank and get carried by your raid or,
    be an okay tank and survive just fine but put out middling dps or,
    be an okay tank and live on the edge to trade off some survivability for more dps output.

    Nowadays, (for all tanks in general) it's be a scrub or survive.
    (yes, that's a bit of hyperbole, but more true than not)

  4. #1424
    Quote Originally Posted by redfella View Post
    I'm not seeing any MASSIVE dps loss. You keep calling a 39% nerf 50%, and cry about it in the exact same way around multiple forum topics and even repeating it in this one over and over.

    It is getting old very fast.

    Yes, HS could use a bit of love to reward better planning and play, but Blizzard does not want that sort of complexity to widen gap between bad and good play too much.

    Expect changes to talents instead. Their mantra for Legion is simple and complex talents in same tier in which using the complex one yields marginal benefits.
    I understand what you're saying regarding complexity and Heart Strike, but I think there's a line that there's an important difference between "complex" and "obtuse." Hitting five mobs with Heart Strike by gathering them up properly is a logical progression of thought that becomes obvious when you spend some time thinking about it. It rewards skill in an intuitive manner. Compare this with something like dot snapshotting, which requires(required) you to have to research things online or spend hours testing by yourself. I could very well be tone-deaf, but I think that Blizzard is more concerned with whether or not something is intuitive rather than if it's difficult.

  5. #1425
    Quote Originally Posted by Philondra View Post
    I think that Blizzard is more concerned with whether or not something is intuitive rather than if it's difficult.
    If there was any consistency with their design you could claim this, but unfortunately Feral goes against every other design decision they have made with regards to class complexity and intuitive mechanics. Unless you read an online guide/theorycraft site you wouldn't have a clue that blood talons, tiger's fury and savage roar can all be used to snapshot bleeds......despite the fact its absolutely night and day for class performance.

    Blizzard likes to make fancy statements and use marketing jargon/buzz words alot to indicate how they create their game but ultimately there is a lot of moving parts in any company and its clear to see that one hand doesnt know what the other is doing when it comes to class development. They are very predictable in how they tackle class development and it was very easy to see the HS nerf was unwarranted but we would still get a BB nerf alongside it rather than instead of it.

    The worst argument used on any forum relating to WoW is, well blizz said that <insert anything>, because what one rep for the company says doesn't make it gospel nor does it mean another rep isn't already working on something counterpoint to another rep's recent interview spiel

    Ultimately the BB nerf was warranted, the HS nerf before it was not and their reasoning for the HS nerf was to keep our multitarget dmg in check. So now that they identified BB as the culprit they should be reverting the previous HS nerf and/or take some of the BB nerf and put it into MR/HS
    Last edited by Khrux; 2016-08-25 at 11:43 AM.

  6. #1426
    Quote Originally Posted by Resurgo View Post
    Personally I liked having complexity to widen a gap between good and bad play.
    Before, you could be a scrub tank and get carried by your raid or,
    be an okay tank and survive just fine but put out middling dps or,
    be an okay tank and live on the edge to trade off some survivability for more dps output.

    Nowadays, (for all tanks in general) it's be a scrub or survive.
    (yes, that's a bit of hyperbole, but more true than not)
    I like it too, but we have to make do with what Blizzard gives us sadly. I think the new good/bad tank difference will be healing required, so basicly you run your healers oom or not, or just failing generally so that DPS/Healers die from hits. You'll have to be pretty damn bad (in regular content) to actually die. In harder content, there are of course going to be bigger differences.



    Quote Originally Posted by Philondra View Post
    I understand what you're saying regarding complexity and Heart Strike, but I think there's a line that there's an important difference between "complex" and "obtuse." Hitting five mobs with Heart Strike by gathering them up properly is a logical progression of thought that becomes obvious when you spend some time thinking about it.
    For normal people yes, but that excludes majority of the playerbase. Setting up stuff is something that a lot of players do not think at all.

    Quote Originally Posted by Philondra View Post
    It rewards skill in an intuitive manner. Compare this with something like dot snapshotting, which requires(required) you to have to research things online or spend hours testing by yourself. I could very well be tone-deaf, but I think that Blizzard is more concerned with whether or not something is intuitive rather than if it's difficult.
    Evidence seems to point towards making things simpler and simpler for a couple of reasons: remove wider gaps between bad and good play and make the game easier to balance when there are less factors to consider (they call pruning leaving room for new things though ).
    Last edited by redfella; 2016-08-25 at 12:23 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by a wiser man
    Tanking should not exist just to let healers and dps have fun.
    Quote Originally Posted by Coramac
    If a monk has 200k DTPS and 200k HPS in hots on him, does anyone hear when he purifies?
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  7. #1427
    Deleted
    How do u guy tank groups with +4 mobs ??

    selfheal via heartstrike / death strike
    or
    trying to keep bone shield up ?

  8. #1428
    I was 100% sure I was going to level up as Blood, does it still worth it?

  9. #1429
    Quote Originally Posted by Memo85 View Post
    How do u guy tank groups with +4 mobs ??

    selfheal via heartstrike / death strike
    or
    trying to keep bone shield up ?
    Bonestorm + heartstrike

  10. #1430
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Memo85 View Post
    How do u guy tank groups with +4 mobs ??

    selfheal via heartstrike / death strike
    or
    trying to keep bone shield up ?
    Erm...is it cheating if I say both? Lol

    Seriously tho, you just marrowrend enough to keep up boneshield then spend excess runes on heartstrike. And obviously deathstrike with your runic power.

    Don't know if I'm misunderstanding your question lol

  11. #1431
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    Quote Originally Posted by Willus View Post
    Erm...is it cheating if I say both? Lol

    Seriously tho, you just marrowrend enough to keep up boneshield then spend excess runes on heartstrike. And obviously deathstrike with your runic power.

    Don't know if I'm misunderstanding your question lol
    In AoE scenarios you're losing Bone Shield on ICD (2 seconds), so you have to dedicate approximately 25% of your GCDs to Marrowrend (3 stacks lasts 6 seconds), and that makes juggling your GCDs super annoying because you have a lot of other shit you need to be doing. Most of your runes (not all of them) will be dedicated to keeping Bone Shield up unless your targets hit like wet noodles and the 20% DR and 10% Haste from Bone Shield isn't that useful.
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  12. #1432
    Quote Originally Posted by redfella View Post
    What Blood DK artifact has is a better big picture than most others. No trait alone feels that big, but most end up complimenting our gameplay nicely, especially when it's fully powered.

    If we're talking about shitty artifacts, go check ou brewmaster, pretty much none of the gold traits are better than minor ones.
    Yeah brewmaster has the worst artifact in the game, can't argue against that.

  13. #1433
    I feel like I'm harping on this every time we talk about Bone Shield stacks, but either it's not getting through or there are many people misunderstanding. You're never going to be "suddenly replacing" Marrowrend for Heart Strike. You'll still always want Bone Shield stacks to be up. Bone Shield stacks will still get consumed at the same rate whether you have 10 or 3.

    Now--whether you sit at 5 Bone Shield stacks or 1 during AoE is a trickier question. If you drop to 1 Bone Shield stack, you're basically gaining two Heart Strikes now (by dropping one Marrowrend) and losing two Heart Strikes later (because you'll want to get back up to 5 stacks when the AoE is over.)

    Assuming you have Heartbreaker, Ossuary, and Foul Bulwark (a reasonable assumption given current balancing), and also assuming that you're looking to maximize survivability over damage:

    At 5 mobs, the two Heart Strikes will get you +24 RP (+15 Bonus RP per Heart Strike vs 5 mobs, -3 RP from losing a Heart Strike vs. one mob later.)
    At 4 mobs, +18 RP
    At 3 mobs, +12 RP
    At 2 mobs, +6 RP

    Then you have to ask yourself the following questions: How long will I be sitting at below 5 Bone Shield stacks? Will the RP I gain from pushing forward two Heart Strikes outweigh the extra Runic Power I'll have to spend on Death Strike? Will the decrease to my maximum HP from sitting on fewer Bone Shield stacks for an extended period of time pose any issues?

    At 3 mobs, you will have lost RP from sitting at 1 stack by the time you hit your third death strike--which is relatively likely given that you need some "bone shield recovery time" once the AOE is over.

    This is why I'm wary of places like Icy Veins giving blanket statements like "you will aim to keep only one stack of Bone Shield" during AoE. It's not that simple.

  14. #1434
    Stood in the Fire Tehr's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Philondra View Post
    <snip>
    I think that it's also important to note that there are very few scenarios where it's not mathematically better to sit on 5+ stacks rather than less, assuming 1) you don't overcap, and 2) the stacks will be consumed from damage and won't fall off naturally.

    In fact, the only scenario that I can think of off the top of my head where it'd be worth it to use runes on Heart Strike rather than Marrowrend when below five stacks is if you need the immediate RP gain from a double HS (net gain of between 10 and 21 extra RP depending on T1 and T2 talents in single-target) in order to get a DS off and are willing to "waste" the extra 5 RP cost of the DS (assuming you have Ossuary) because it's going to keep you alive (perhaps you just hit Purgatory, and keeping 5+ stacks and maximizing healing-per-point-of-RP takes a back seat to staying alive).

    Obviously a lot of factors go into this, like how much RP you'll be gaining (how many targets), will Bone Shield fall off completely before you're able to recharge enough runes to use another Marrowrend, etc., but in the most basic and simple scenario the above stands true.
    Last edited by Tehr; 2016-08-25 at 11:46 PM.
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  15. #1435
    Quote Originally Posted by Resurgo View Post
    Personally I liked having complexity to widen a gap between good and bad play.
    Before, you could be a scrub tank and get carried by your raid or,
    be an okay tank and survive just fine but put out middling dps or,
    be an okay tank and live on the edge to trade off some survivability for more dps output.

    Nowadays, (for all tanks in general) it's be a scrub or survive.
    (yes, that's a bit of hyperbole, but more true than not)
    This is the problem.

    A complete moron spamming marrowrend will BARELY do less damage than someone perfectly managing their bone shield stacks(with ossuary) and runes weaving in heart strikes when possible to maximize damage.

    That isn't ok. Optimization and playing well should be rewarded substantially.

  16. #1436
    I am Murloc!
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    They nerfed legendaries for a lot of classes. Blood DK belt is down from 3 to 2 seconds on heart strike, and the bracers are 15% refund of RP down from 25%.

    Friend noticed it while checking his DH legendaries just now, so the tooltips are live at least.

  17. #1437
    http://www.wowhead.com/news=255375/b...eim-arcway-and

    Were there any other changes? Also why does mmo-c always lag at least half a day behind wowhead when it comes to news?

  18. #1438
    @Tehr & @Philondra: I personally have been expending all runes on HS during DnD (RD) when I have more 3+ Bone Shield stacks up and there's two or more targets. Basicly you gain a bit more RP during when you tank more mobs and then when you are back into single target you generate your BS back up, minor RP loss but the extra HS is a DPS increase. The amount of Marrowrends during an encounter doesn't change, just that you let yourself drop to 1-3 stacks (since you had all runes recharging when you hit that 3) momentarily for a DPS gain and more RP now --> less RP for a while after that.

    What I haven't done is the math that what target amount is a good breakpoint to do that, I'm thinking 2-3 targets you should only do it if you are ok sacrificing a bit of survivability for a DPS gain, at 4 targets you don't really lose out on RP but maximum HP will be lower for a while, and at 5 it's an further increase in DPS and RP.

    Edit: Just want to run this by you guys

    Code:
        local runic_power = UnitPower("player")
        local runic_power_max = UnitPowerMax("player")
        local runic_power_deficit = runic_power_max - runic_power
        local runic_power_cap = runic_power_max - 20
    
        -- Set rp cap so Marrowrend or Heartstrike will not cap RP in cleave situations
        if talented.hearbreaker then
            if aura_env.targetCount == 2 then runic_power_cap = runic_power_max - 24 end -- +6
            if aura_env.targetCount == 3 then runic_power_cap = runic_power_max - 32 end -- +12
            if aura_env.targetCount == 4 then runic_power_cap = runic_power_max - 38 end -- +18
            if aura_env.targetCount >= 5 then runic_power_cap = runic_power_max - 44 end -- +24
        end
    `

    I use this code to pop up a DS icon so as not to cap RP, just wanted to make sure the numbers made sense?
    Last edited by redfella; 2016-08-26 at 07:36 AM.
    Quote Originally Posted by a wiser man
    Tanking should not exist just to let healers and dps have fun.
    Quote Originally Posted by Coramac
    If a monk has 200k DTPS and 200k HPS in hots on him, does anyone hear when he purifies?
    WeakAura sets with Rotation Helpers: Vengeance - Brewmaster

    ARMORY - ARMORY
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  19. #1439
    Stood in the Fire Tehr's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by redfella View Post
    @Tehr & @Philondra: I personally have been expending all runes on HS during DnD (RD) when I have more 3+ Bone Shield stacks up and there's two or more targets. Basicly you gain a bit more RP during when you tank more mobs and then when you are back into single target you generate your BS back up, minor RP loss but the extra HS is a DPS increase. The amount of Marrowrends during an encounter doesn't change, just that you let yourself drop to 1-3 stacks (since you had all runes recharging when you hit that 3) momentarily for a DPS gain and more RP now --> less RP for a while after that.

    What I haven't done is the math that what target amount is a good breakpoint to do that, I'm thinking 2-3 targets you should only do it if you are ok sacrificing a bit of survivability for a DPS gain, at 4 targets you don't really lose out on RP but maximum HP will be lower for a while, and at 5 it's an further increase in DPS and RP.

    Edit: Just want to run this by you guys

    Code:
        local runic_power = UnitPower("player")
        local runic_power_max = UnitPowerMax("player")
        local runic_power_deficit = runic_power_max - runic_power
        local runic_power_cap = runic_power_max - 20
    
        -- Set rp cap so Marrowrend or Heartstrike will not cap RP in cleave situations
        if talented.hearbreaker then
            if aura_env.targetCount == 2 then runic_power_cap = runic_power_max - 24 end -- +6
            if aura_env.targetCount == 3 then runic_power_cap = runic_power_max - 32 end -- +12
            if aura_env.targetCount == 4 then runic_power_cap = runic_power_max - 38 end -- +18
            if aura_env.targetCount >= 5 then runic_power_cap = runic_power_max - 44 end -- +24
        end
    `

    I use this code to pop up a DS icon so as not to cap RP, just wanted to make sure the numbers made sense?
    Yeah, that's another situation where it's better to drop below 5 stacks.

    As for code:
    Firstly, you're not accounting for Rapid Decomposition. Gotta add some logic to account for the extra 15% RP generation from that.

    Secondly, you have talented.hearbreaker instead of talented.heartbreaker. Typo or intended?

    Thirdly, pretty sure it's just +3 RP per target when HS cleaves with Heartbreaker (unless I'm a boosted chimp) and not +6.

    Lastly, might be easier to do something like:
    Code:
    if talented.heartbreaker then
        if aura_env.targetCount >= 2 and aura_env.targetCount <= 5 then runic_power_cap = runic_power_max - (15 + (aura_env.targetCount * 3))
        elseif aura_env.targetCount >= 6 then runic_power_cap = runic_power_max - 30 end
    end
    Lastly v2, it's not going to matter in like 5 days, but the T18 2piece gives you a chance to gain an additional 10 RP when casting Heart Strike, but I don't know if it's worth the effort to add that.

    Lastly v3 (just nit-picking for quality assurance purposes), you can generate 21 RP per Heart Strike with Heartbreaker and Rapid Decomposition in single-target, so you might want to change your local to
    Code:
    local runic_power_cap = runic_power_max - 21
    Last edited by Tehr; 2016-08-26 at 08:52 AM.
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  20. #1440
    Should not try to code anything math related before morning coffee tbh. ^^ Thanks for the good points, will re-iterate a bit.

    Ended up with:
    Code:
    local runic_power_cap = 20 -- Base for Marrowrend
    
    local rd_mult = 1
     -- Standing in DnD with RD
    if talented.rapid_decomposition and buffRemains.death_and_decay then rd_mult = 1.15 end
    
    if talented.heartbreaker then
        if aura_env.targetCount >= 2 and aura_env.targetCount <= 5 then 
            runic_power_cap = 15 + (aura_env.targetCount * 3)
        elseif aura_env.targetCount >= 6 then 
            runic_power_cap = 30
        end
    end
    
     -- Factor RD multiplier to whatever RP cap we calculated and subtract from max RP
    runic_power_cap = runic_power_max - runic_power_cap * rd_mult

    Untested, will need check if the amounts match up to what we really get.
    Last edited by redfella; 2016-08-26 at 09:23 AM.
    Quote Originally Posted by a wiser man
    Tanking should not exist just to let healers and dps have fun.
    Quote Originally Posted by Coramac
    If a monk has 200k DTPS and 200k HPS in hots on him, does anyone hear when he purifies?
    WeakAura sets with Rotation Helpers: Vengeance - Brewmaster

    ARMORY - ARMORY
    <Ninjapartio>

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