Did the Oregon standoff people not learn anything from history???

[Ripster42]

Yeah your government prefers poison instead.

He's a bulgarian. Also, he has previously admitted that he gets his world view from anime and just today that he gets off sexually by bashing america.

[sarahtasher]

He also somehow appears to think that US propaganda helds Lenin in high regard.

[Chingylol]

Well, the driver of the car with Ammon Bundy just made a video and says that the Lavoy dude took off when the cops told him repeatedly to turn off the vehicle. Then got out his vehicle at a roadblock and they shot him.

https://www.facebook.com/mark.mcconn...48?pnref=story

[Pterodactylus]

Wasn't this mostly about the government increasingly seizing land in the area and using flimsy reasons to crack down onto those who refuse to budge?

Nope. This is about a bunch of crybabies who are sad because they did not get their way.

[Tijuana]

I mean what were they doing as kids when the public schools were teaching the younglings about the Civil Wars? wasn't this lesson enough to imprint the fear of the extend to which the Federal Government's willingness to not let rebels test their will? I mean the Federal Government was willing to go to a CIVIL WAR and kill a SHITTTTTTT TONSSS of people and burn down a SHIT TONS of houses just to stomp all over the secessionists to make sure things stay together and to teach the south about any attempts of encroachment.

...lol did the Oregon people looked at the Civil War and go "yarrr we're stronger...we'll bring them to our will"??? LOL, even if the Oregon people managed to get something like the Arab Spring going in US due to their Oregon stand-off example, they must have known that the Federal's Government willingness to crack down and, in the worse case example, go to war shouldn't be doubted?

Did they not learn anything about the Waco Texas's cult stand off? the Federal Government went in there with a bulldozer and burned down the entire house. Well, maybe the cultist did the burning themselves I am unsure... but this shows the Federal Government's unwillingness to tolerate cults.

Just read the description of the Waco siege in the first three paragraphs of Wikipedia's page: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Waco_siege at the top of the page before the table content.

These people were fools who wasted their time. The Federal Government was gonna own them in the end.

Developing Story: http://www.cnn.com/2016/01/27/us/mal...ext/index.html

Can someone remind me what their complaint is again? Something about wanting to graze cattle on land they don't own?

[Reeve]

Let's start with the land was seized by the federal government unconstitutionally many years ago. Again, i state the following:
Over 60% of Alaska is owned by the federal government, just shy of 50% of the eleven western-most states (Arizona, California, Colorado, Idaho, Montana, Nevada, New Mexico, Oregon, Utah, Washington, and Wyoming), but only 4% of the rest of the states. The western states are treated extremely unfairly in this manner. None of this land was taken using any Constitutionally granted powers.

Then move on to the fact that the fires were started as controlled burns to clear underbrush. This was done to reduce the chances of and the severity of wildfires. The farmers own land was endangered by this because the federal government has refused to properly manage the land in this way for way too long.

This is hilarious. Seized from whom? The US beat Mexico in a war, then purchased the land from them as part of the treaty settlement. The land was entirely federal at that point. Over the decades, the Federal Government has sold of much of that land piece by piece, but they didn't "seize" it from anyone, unless you're talking about Mexico. Do you want the Federal Government to give California, Nevada, Utah, Colorado, New Mexico, Arizona, and Texas back to Mexico?

[Ripster42]

Well, the driver of the car with Ammon Bundy just made a video and says that the Lavoy dude took off when the cops told him repeatedly to turn off the vehicle. Then got out his vehicle at a roadblock and they shot him.

https://www.facebook.com/mark.mcconn...48?pnref=story

How would he know unless he took off as well and followed to roadblock?

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This is hilarious. Seized from whom? The US beat Mexico in a war, then purchased the land from them as part of the treaty settlement. The land was entirely federal at that point. Over the decades, the Federal Government has sold of much of that land piece by piece, but they didn't "seize" it from anyone, unless you're talking about Mexico. Do you want the Federal Government to give California, Nevada, Utah, Colorado, New Mexico, Arizona, and Texas back to Mexico?

I think he's talking about the US purchasing the rights back to the land early in the 20th century when the people who owned it were bankrupt.

[Reeve]

Can someone remind me what their complaint is again? Something about wanting to graze cattle on land they don't own?

They're mostly cattle ranchers caught up in their own revolutionary mythology. They started this particular movement to try to get the Federal Government to drop charges against a few cattle ranchers who burned up a bunch of Federal land in order to cover up evidence of their illegal poaching. Those folks since surrendered peacefully and asked Bundy and his crew to bugger off.

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I think he's talking about the US purchasing the rights back to the land early in the 20th century when the people who owned it were bankrupt.

I'm not familiar with that, but the constitution very clearly allows the federal government to be a regular landowner.

[Tijuana]

They're mostly cattle ranchers caught up in their own revolutionary mythology. They started this particular movement to try to get the Federal Government to drop charges against a few cattle ranchers who burned up a bunch of Federal land in order to cover up evidence of their illegal poaching. Those folks since surrendered peacefully and asked Bundy and his crew to bugger off.

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I'm not familiar with that, but the constitution very clearly allows the federal government to be a regular landowner.

The US Govt owns over 60% of the land in the country. I found that to be pretty surprising the first time I learned that.

[Ripster42]

They're mostly cattle ranchers caught up in their own revolutionary mythology. They started this particular movement to try to get the Federal Government to drop charges against a few cattle ranchers who burned up a bunch of Federal land in order to cover up evidence of their illegal poaching. Those folks since surrendered peacefully and asked Bundy and his crew to bugger off.

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I'm not familiar with that, but the constitution very clearly allows the federal government to be a regular landowner.

There are also some instances of the gov't using eminent domain either for military bases (especially in the SW), railroads, or wildlife preservation to force purchases. None exactly recently, although the USAF wants more land in CO that has a campaign against their purchase of the land. The people protesting it are huge dicks and have essentially ruined the land they're crying over through over-grazing though.

[Reeve]

The US Govt owns over 60% of the land in the country. I found that to be pretty surprising the first time I learned that.

Doesn't really surprise me at all. There's a lot of empty space they own, and a lot of national forest land. Anyone who's really spent any time up in the mountains could tell you there's just a shit ton of empty space up there, and who should own it if not the federal government?

I remember being taught at some point in college I think that according to some Mining Act from the 1870s that's still on the book, if you're prospecting for gold in federally owned national forest land, you can stake a claim and purchase the land for something like $10 per acre or some ridiculously low number like that. The law is apparently still on the books.

[Ripster42]

Doesn't really surprise me at all. There's a lot of empty space they own, and a lot of national forest land. Anyone who's really spent any time up in the mountains could tell you there's just a shit ton of empty space up there, and who should own it if not the federal government?

I remember being taught at some point in college I think that according to some Mining Act from the 1870s that's still on the book, if you're prospecting for gold in federally owned national forest land, you can stake a claim and purchase the land for something like $10 per acre or some ridiculously low number like that. The law is apparently still on the books.

From what I know, new laws supersede old laws, so while it might still be on the books, the newer ones about mineral rights could very well trump that one.

[Sir Andy]

Not really sure why they decided to fight the FBI.

You can't make your case when you're dead.

[Tijuana]

Doesn't really surprise me at all. There's a lot of empty space they own, and a lot of national forest land. Anyone who's really spent any time up in the mountains could tell you there's just a shit ton of empty space up there, and who should own it if not the federal government?

I remember being taught at some point in college I think that according to some Mining Act from the 1870s that's still on the book, if you're prospecting for gold in federally owned national forest land, you can stake a claim and purchase the land for something like $10 per acre or some ridiculously low number like that. The law is apparently still on the books.

It doesn't bother me at all, either. I was just surprised at the figure. Also, you can still get free land via the Homestead Act. They never gave it all away, and much of it is viable farm land. But, it's so remote most would not want to live on it for the 3 years required.

[gyrados]

tbh i havnt given much attention to this oregon standoff but why did they occupy the building in the first place lol

[Karnak]

Can someone remind me what their complaint is again? Something about wanting to graze cattle on land they don't own?

Worse, it is that they want to graze their cattle on Federal land for free, rather than the 10% of what private land owners charge for grazing rights that the Federal government charges now. In other words they want to have their grazing 100% subsidized by the government rather than only 90% subsidized as it is now.

They say they want the Federal government to either sell all of the Federal lands or give them to their respective states, which would then mostly have to sell them (maybe not California), under the delusion that the small time ranchers like the Bundys would be able to buy up job lots of it. In reality it would all be bought by the same three massive companies than already dominate the cattle market and other extremely wealthy entities, then grazing rights sold at market cost rather than vastly below market as the Federal government does now. If they got their way it would kill them.

[Felya]

Not really sure why they decided to fight the FBI.

You can't make your case when you're dead.

The article in the OP said that the guy who got killed has said that he rather die than go to jail. Because while in jail he cannot see the stars or ride his horse while tending to his cattle... No argument was provided on how he plans to do any of that while dead...

[Sir Andy]

The article in the OP said that the guy who got killed has said that he rather die than go to jail. Because while in jail he cannot see the stars or ride his horse while tending to his cattle... No argument was provided on how he plans to do any of that while dead...

So grandstanding?

Noted.

[Reeve]

So grandstanding?

Noted.

Grandstanding implies saying you'll do something you don't really have an intention of doing. He wasn't grandstanding. He was saying things he actually believed, which is kind of worse.

[Endus]

I'm going to lock this thread, since we have two active threads on the Oregon situation on the first page of the forum, and the other's the older and longer thread; please redirect discussion there; http://www.mmo-champion.com/threads/1941112