Why do you believe in Socialism?

[Vurdah]

Capitalism works because it's practically the law of jungle made into Economics. Those who are intelligent/lucky/strong will always be higher in the food chain than those that are stupid/unlucky/weak.
And this law has worked ever since the Earth was populated by nothing but viruses.

Socialism attempts to break this law and assume some life forms would sacrifice part of themselves to help others for no other reason than empathy. Empathy is a bizarre phenomenon in nature, it practically doesn't exist because everything has a price and no life form would pay that price just to help another that is not their mate nor offspring.

Natures pushes the law of the survival of the fittest - which makes it that only the most efficient organisms get to live and reproduce and improve the species over time. But socialism says it should not be like this and even less effective organisms should continue at some of the expense of the strong, despite the consequences. This encourages some people to put in very little effort into improving themselves.
The smart don't feel like working because they know that whatever they gain is going to be cut in half and given to moochers and the moochers don't work because they know they can't do much better than they already do, so they don't bother at all. And nobody gives a shit.

You guys know the AK-47 developed by a man named Mikhail Kalashnikov. Unfortunately for him, he was living in Russia at that time. Had he lived somewhere in Europe, USA or Japan, he would have been a billionaire after selling his design for the most effective and easy to maintain assault rifle in history. BUT since he was living in Russia, the government just took it and gave him some pocket change. - Socialism - Why bother since you don't get your work's worth?

Russia is communist not socialist. You clearly don't know the difference. And as far as "law of the jungle" goes, you are so wrong. By your logic you should be able to murder rape and plunder because it is the law of the jungle. This works great for primitive beasts not intelligent enough to form an opinion or have empathy. Most evolved persons want to help their fellow man. Man working together and helping one another is how we got to the point where we are right now. Life isn't a solo adventure.

[Frozenbeef]

Because i don't want people dieing around me when i walk down the street? 0o

[padie]

With risk comes reward.

The guy who took the risk, might have put his life savings on the line to start a company, might have worked 80 hours a week to build the company, hire the right talent, and do the right marketing moves. (this scenario I described is very common with most businesses)

The risk is that he could lose it all. The reward is the unlimited potential that he can make by having took the risk. The reward that the employees get is a stable salary. "Security". They dont have to take any risks, other than the risk of being fired if they do a poor job. They will always have a paycheck coming in. They agree to a salary when they get hired. They contracted for whatever they are making. Are you suggesting that these contracted employees who agreed to a salary, have claim to any upside the business makes?

I am saying no. No they do not have any claim to the upside the business makes, because they agreed to their salary. They took no risks. They didn't put anything on the line. They are working for their Salary. Shouldn't the owner of the business have sole disgression on how he spends his money? If he wants to give some to his employees in the form of bonuses, so be it. But why should he be penalized if he chooses not to, but keeps to his contracts with his employees to what they signed up for?

That's a nice story!
I'm sure every very rich person has made his/her money that way.

[Independent voter]

I don't believe in socialism. I feel the government should let me keep my money and spend it in the way I see fit. Taxing my income and having politicians figure out how to spend it sounds like a recipe for disaster.

[Vurdah]

because i'd rather sit at home than work.

it's the easier path, it's the natural order to try to take the easier path. if a cheetah sees an antelope with it's baby, does it take the grown one or the baby? it takes the baby, cause it's easier. if i see a job, or free money, which one's the easier one?

I want to know where all this "free" money is and how to get at it?

[Nemilos]

Yes, because without their time and effort the business in question wouldn't exist or be enjoying its current level of success. You need to stop viewing businesses as the personal property of their CEO or shareholders and start looking at them for what they are; social organizations dedicated to a specific set of tasks.

- - - Updated - - -



You represent an exception, then. 'Moral hazard' as a whole doesn't exist.

You think people wanting to sit at home are the exception? You have a vastly overestimated sense of worth placed on the average human.

[padie]

I don't believe in socialism. I feel the government should let me keep my money and spend it in the way I see fit. Taxing my income and having politicians figure out how to spend it sounds like a recipe for disaster.

So you dont want roads?

[Kalis]

I don't believe in socialism. I feel the government should let me keep my money and spend it in the way I see fit. Taxing my income and having politicians figure out how to spend it sounds like a recipe for disaster.

I prefer not to hike cross country to get anywhere, but whatever floats your boat.

[Elegiac]

I don't believe in socialism. I feel the government should let me keep my money and spend it in the way I see fit. Taxing my income and having politicians figure out how to spend it sounds like a recipe for disaster.

It's worked for the entirety of human history, so...

[derpkitteh]

I want to know where all this "free" money is and how to get at it?

hell if i know, i can't even get medicaid.

[Deleted]

Russia is communist not socialist. You clearly don't know the difference. And as far as "law of the jungle" goes, you are so wrong. By your logic you should be able to murder rape and plunder because it is the law of the jungle. This works great for primitive beasts not intelligent enough to form an opinion or have empathy. Most evolved persons want to help their fellow man. Man working together and helping one another is how we got to the point where we are right now. Life isn't a solo adventure.

No, man working and innovating in order to get rich and reap benefits was what got us here, not hippy communes.

Conflict pushed innovation.
*Wars pushed for the invention of machines of war, whose designs were later applied to civilian purposes.
*Profession masters worked to better their designs so people buy from them and not from their competitors.
*Conquerors brought the weak and barbaric societies they conquered, to their level of development.
*Traders established new trading routes to cut off the competition.

[Elegiac]

You think people wanting to sit at home are the exception?

Essentially, yes. The vast majority of people enjoy doing some kind of work because it provides a sense of dignity and accomplishment.

The problem is that your definition of 'work' is solely that of a cog in a corporate machine.

[Jaylock]

because i'd rather sit at home than work.

it's the easier path, it's the natural order to try to take the easier path. if a cheetah sees an antelope with it's baby, does it take the grown one or the baby? it takes the baby, cause it's easier. if i see a job, or free money, which one's the easier one?

And this is exactly the poster child example of why socialism is not an equitable system.

How is someone leeching off the backs of other people fair in any way? Socialism is not fair. It promotes laziness. It promotes entitledness. It creates a society highly polarized against itself.

[Elegiac]

Conflict pushed innovation

Cool story. And the US' success in conflict has been entirely due to a massive effort of internal cooperation and rationalisation of means of production.

Literally the only thing conflict provides is a motive.

[Vurdah]

I don't believe in socialism. I feel the government should let me keep my money and spend it in the way I see fit. Taxing my income and having politicians figure out how to spend it sounds like a recipe for disaster.

Do you have any idea how much worse our infrastructure, education system and law enforcement would be without taxes? You would have to personally pay someone to fix roads, teach your children and offer law enforcement services. People already bitch about paying 25% in taxes. How much do you think you and your community would have to pay to educate your children and fix the failing infrastructure around you?

[Deleted]

I don't believe in socialism. I feel the government should let me keep my money and spend it in the way I see fit. Taxing my income and having politicians figure out how to spend it sounds like a recipe for disaster.

Oh really?! And who is going to pay for schools, police, firemen, army, hospitals, roads, etc etc etc?! You think the government should expect people to just donate for these purposes?!

Maybe the government should have Kickstarter campaigns to build hospitals.

[Deleted]

You think people wanting to sit at home are the exception?

You ever had a while of being unemployed? Yeah sitting at home is great for a couple of months, then your home becomes your prison.

I'd generally agree with the concept that most people prefer to have a job than sit at home all day. Or, if not a job, at least be working towards something worthwhile.

[Elegiac]

And this is exactly the poster child example of why socialism is not an equitable system.

How is someone leeching off the backs of other people fair in any way?

I agree, how is it fair that a CEO makes several orders of magnitude more in pay than the people who work equally as hard to do their part in the company's success?

Individuals do not exist in a vacuum. Everything that exists is ultimately built on the foundation of social organization.

[Osmeric]

This is based on a fundamentally false understanding of how evolution works. Natural selection is not 'individual versus individual' or 'the strong versus the weak'. It happens on the level of species and whether or not a given population of organisms possesses by chance the trait which their environment selects for or against. Moreover, humans as a species are highly social; empathy and altruism make sense because they help to maintain the integrity of the social unit through mutual obligation.

Actually, no, it happens on the level of genes. Group selection of the kind you talk about is very rare, if it occurs at all.

Evolution is mostly about the competition between different variants of genes in a population, with survival/reproduction acting as a kind of voting mechanism where the variants increase or decrease in frequency in the population. Of course the genes are cooperating with other genes, but fundamentally they are being "selfish".

[Jaylock]

Yes, because without their time and effort the business in question wouldn't exist or be enjoying its current level of success. You need to stop viewing businesses as the personal property of their CEO or shareholders and start looking at them for what they are; social organizations dedicated to a specific set of tasks.

I disagree with you 100%. You are basically saying the people you hired should be able to seize what you created and dictate to themselves part of the upside just because they belong to the organization.

When you agree to a salary at a business, you legally are only entitled to your salary. Nothing more. If the owner wants to be generous (or in the case of corporations, the share holders), and give a bonus (or dividend in the case of a corporation) they should be able to do so. If the owner doesn't want to share in the bottom line profits, he shouldn't have to. Because you know what, its his business. The mere fact that you work for him in his business doesn't entitle you to anything except your legally contracted salary. Businesses at their core aren't social organizations. They are businesses. Social circumstances result in a growing employee base, but they are not run by those who work in them. They are run by the owner(s).