Multiple raids are awesome

[Flurryfang]

Playing devils advocate here.

Would this system leave little for veteran raiders to do for the first patch?

If the content is on a curve like this won't they get though the first raid to quickly?

Well, if you implement hardmodes or a 2-difficulty system, where most player does the normal version and then they are done, where veterans steamroll through normal and then jump to do the harder version of the content. Mythic is good thing, but it should be a thing reserved for the veterans and not a natural path of progression as many players see it as now.

Also, having the hardcore community on raid-farming is a pretty good thing, aslong as the raiding tier is done well. This gives time for hardcore fans of the game to build communities, do boosting pugs for lower skill-lvled players and raise alt-guilds for themselfs. The multiple raids might even make it so that the veterans would enjoy going back to older raids to enjoy some nostalgia feeling I would personally say that i loved playing through Karazhan on my alts in TBC, even after i had cleared BT. It gave a nice feeling of going back in time to my noob days.

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It was the only thing we small, F&F guilds could do.

Yet it is often a top-3 raid for many veterans and hardcore raiders. The reason for Karazhan being popular, is in my opnion, because it had a good skill ladder. Many people got the taste of raid progression through Karazhan and because you had to improve at nearly every 2-3 bosses, people got to taste how good it feels to see your own skill increase by time.

[SoulSoBreezy]

the problem is if you don't wanna do Normal and Heroic but wanna get into Mythic

in a single player game I start out at the highest difficulty level if that's what I want and then I have fun

in WoW I'm forced to complete the game two times before I'm allowed to finally do the difficulty I wanted to do all along

that's horrible game design

Not quite sure what your point is, considering you're comparing a single player game's difficulty to an MMO's difficulty.
Regarding WoW though, your statement is absolutely false. That kind of attunement isn't required for Mythic difficulty. Just wait a week.
Of course if you're part of a top 10 guild, then I'll say deal with it. If you want to be at the top you gotta do what you gotta do to max your gains.

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Yet it is often a top-3 raid for many veterans and hardcore raiders. The reason for Karazhan being popular, is in my opnion, because it had a good skill ladder. Many people got the taste of raid progression through Karazhan and because you had to improve at nearly every 2-3 bosses, people got to taste how good it feels to see your own skill increase by time.

My experience was different.
As the feeder guild of that generation, we didn't get a taste of raid progression. That was just...it. I won't argue or defend the "whys" regarding our not progressing to 25 man content. And that's not even my point on this topic.
The argument of multiple difficulties is an argument on paper (forums), not in practice.
In game we do what we can, or want. I'd bet a dollar that there are very very Mythic level players who run every other difficulty "because they have to." I'd bet another dollar that a 2h/week player doesn't peruse the group finder for Mythic clears.

The reality is that the wow experience is different for these levels of players. Problems just occur in places like forums where these different players push design ideologies on each other.

[Deleted]

Sorry, pandering to bad players shouldn't happen. You're not good enough for the game? Find another.

I consider myself good player with multiple realm firsts in the past, but to wipe 450+ times to kill ONE boss? No, thnx, I rather settle for lesser difficulty. My time on this Earth is not endless, got other things to do.
You want me to find another game? No, Im happy with this one.
If you are too good for this game, find another. Wildstar is just download away....

[Bill Cypher]

I consider myself good player with multiple realm firsts in the past, but to wipe 450+ times to kill ONE boss? No, thnx, I rather settle for lesser difficulty. My time on this Earth is not endless, got other things to do.
You want me to find another game? No, Im happy with this one.
If you are too good for this game, find another. Wildstar is just download away....

When in the past did you have realm firsts without a lot of attempts? Lies don't make your case stronger so why add them?

[risingforce]

The multiple difficulties are a positive, they afford most players an entry point into raiding at a level that matches their time/skill commitments/availability.

The negative is the completionist attitude some people bring to the argument; some people fill compelled to attend LFR (or 'x' difficulty below their skill set for 'y' purpose).

In my opinion, those that are complaining in this particular case would be happier by adjusting their own views of what the difficulties offer.

In my experience, LFR > Mythic has worked great. In my experience, Normal difficulty has often been the only level that I have skipped. LFR affords me an easy/chill path to farm Legendary parts for Alts whilst at the same time I can help out the LFR ecosphere. HC is great at the Guild level for many, with a clear impetus to grow and aim for Mythics -and hitting even 1/xx Mythics as a guild feels great! Normal, in my experience, has always been a little meh... Ok for alt runs, but the iLvl seemed to put a lot off.

Finally, LFR represents such a silly little amount of time to complete -it's very hard to complain about it. The net benefit has to be good. And if LFR (or anything in life is too easy) then take your time and help, the reward is worth it.

[Samarin]

When in the past did you have realm firsts without a lot of attempts? Lies don't make your case stronger so why add them?

He didn't say that, realm firsts in the PAST, not enough time for hundreds of wipes NOW. Well, that's what I understood it as at least.

[SoulSoBreezy]

When in the past did you have realm firsts without a lot of attempts? Lies don't make your case stronger so why add them?

Lies or not, I think his point is that gaming lifestyles change. "Mythic or bust" is pretty alienating for players.
Given current paradigms though, "Raid or Die" hasn't worked out well, either. Easier difficulties like LFR/Normal can and should continue to exist as long as raiding in general doesn't feel required. Basically, the legendary ring/cape argument.

[Bill Cypher]

Lies or not, I think his point is that gaming lifestyles change. "Mythic or bust" is pretty alienating for players.
Given current paradigms though, "Raid or Die" hasn't worked out well, either. Easier difficulties like LFR/Normal can and should continue to exist as long as raiding in general doesn't feel required. Basically, the legendary ring/cape argument.

I think its people who make it mythic or bust... most of it comes down to envy. Every players seems to want mythic gear regardless of how skilled they are or what content they are running.

WoW seems to suffer from a bad case of keeping up with the Jeffersons.

[SoulSoBreezy]

I think its people who make it mythic or bust... most of it comes down to envy. Every players seems to want mythic gear regardless of how skilled they are or what content they are running.

WoW seems to suffer from a bad case of keeping up with the Jeffersons.

I feel dated and unintelligent. I had to look it up https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Keepin...th_the_Joneses
I'd like my small group to have an opportunity to experience mythic content. Different argument though.
These forums have both camps here though:
Those who want and cannot obtain, so they whine.
Those who have and put down other players, *and* whine.

I feel that the latter players have done more long term damage to the game. All the "get off my lawn" talk (among other things) caused design changes and shifts that turned the 3m WoD surge into a fleeting moment.

[Bill Cypher]

I feel dated and unintelligent. I had to look it up https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Keepin...th_the_Joneses
I'd like my small group to have an opportunity to experience mythic content. Different argument though.
These forums have both camps here though:
Those who want and cannot obtain, so they whine.
Those who have and put down other players, *and* whine.

I feel that the latter players have done more long term damage to the game. All the "get off my lawn" talk (among other things) caused design changes and shifts that turned the 3m WoD surge into a fleeting moment.

I would have to disagree... Nothing they have done has actually changed the game. Raiders didn't get multiple difficulties put it. They didn't turn dungeons into jokes. Everything that has changed has been a move aimed at pleasing non-raiders.

Raiders are out of any group unchanging. I really can't see how they damaged the game nothing has been changed for them.What is it that you believe has changed from people not wanting others to have something? Tier and trinkets from lfr because raiders hated the content? Even if that is why the change was made it seems like a rather light change compared to what those who are driven by envy wrought.

[SoulSoBreezy]

I would have to disagree... Nothing they have done has actually changed the game. Raiders didn't get multiple difficulties put it. They didn't turn dungeons into jokes. Everything that has changed has been a move aimed at pleasing non-raiders.

Raiders are out of any group unchanging. I really can't see how they damaged the game nothing has been changed for them.What is it that you believe has changed from people not wanting others to have something? Tier and trinkets from lfr because raiders hated the content? Even if that is why the change was made it seems like a rather light change compared to what those who are driven by envy wrought.

Sorry, I meant to say it's damaged the community (which I feel is a vital component of the game). Even our conversation is questionable. Raiders have done nothing wrong, implying that non raiders are at fault, and that players who "got multiple difficulties put in" are non-raiders? Kind of a stretch of conclusion, imo.
"Heroic/Mythic or die" isn't a fair model for the large majority of the playerbase who doesn't have the skill nor capacity to work this. "Raid or die" isn't either, for those who simply don't raid.

Your statements suggest that Blizzard changed the game to please non raiders, but it's no secret that Blizzard designed to be an MMO accessible at a casual level. Speaking broadly, obviously there're still players who feel like they should stand on some raiding pedestal and lord over their populace.

[Bill Cypher]

Sorry, I meant to say it's damaged the community (which I feel is a vital component of the game). Even our conversation is questionable. Raiders have done nothing wrong, implying that non raiders are at fault, and that players who "got multiple difficulties put in" are non-raiders? Kind of a stretch of conclusion, imo.
"Heroic/Mythic or die" isn't a fair model for the large majority of the playerbase who doesn't have the skill nor capacity to work this. "Raid or die" isn't either, for those who simply don't raid.

Your statements suggest that Blizzard changed the game to please non raiders, but it's no secret that Blizzard designed to be an MMO accessible at a casual level. Speaking broadly, obviously there're still players who feel like they should stand on some raiding pedestal and lord over their populace.

There will always be some that is human nature but yes all the changes made have nearly in their entirety been aimed at non-raiders\casuals.

Think about it. All raiders have wanted is a well tuned raid. They flourished from vanilla to half of wrath with one mode. If hardmode wasn't added raids would have remained closer to the tbc design that worked well with raiders.

You claim they have harmed the community and again as one of those mythic raiders how? We wall ourselves into our guilds... Most of us stopped interacting with the general player base since cata showed us most wow players would rather whine for nerfs then try to get better.

Raiders are oddly blameless for what happened to the game... we are like the hobbits or ents from lotr. We stand alone apart from the game. The changes made where made for players who wanted the rewards raiders had but didn't have the skill or time to achieve them.

We are the rock by the stream.... unchanging throughout the years as the trees grow and the fish live and die. We are oddly outside of the circle and kind of happy to be.

[Echocho]

The only thing wrong with multiple difficulties imo is designing the game around players having to do two or more of them. We shouldn't even be able to do the same raid in two different difficulties on any given week imo.

[SoulSoBreezy]

There will always be some that is human nature but yes all the changes made have nearly in their entirety been aimed at non-raiders\casuals.

Think about it. All raiders have wanted is a well tuned raid. They flourished from vanilla to half of wrath with one mode. If hardmode wasn't added raids would have remained closer to the tbc design that worked well with raiders.

You claim they have harmed the community and again as one of those mythic raiders how? We wall ourselves into our guilds... Most of us stopped interacting with the general player base since cata showed us most wow players would rather whine for nerfs then try to get better.

Raiders are oddly blameless for what happened to the game... we are like the hobbits or ents from lotr. We stand alone apart from the game. The changes made where made for players who wanted the rewards raiders had but didn't have the skill or time to achieve them.

We are the rock by the stream.... unchanging throughout the years as the trees grow and the fish live and die. We are oddly outside of the circle and kind of happy to be.

In practice, what you say is true. Like I've been saying, this argument exists in places like forums between we would-be analysts and armchair devs who look at the whole picture, decide what we think is best for players and push those thoughts. This includes me =(.
And yeah it harms the community. Look at this thread and a few LFR threads. Blah blah blah.

[Glorious Leader]

I would have to disagree... Nothing they have done has actually changed the game. Raiders didn't get multiple difficulties put it. They didn't turn dungeons into jokes. Everything that has changed has been a move aimed at pleasing non-raiders.

Raiders are out of any group unchanging. I really can't see how they damaged the game nothing has been changed for them.What is it that you believe has changed from people not wanting others to have something? Tier and trinkets from lfr because raiders hated the content? Even if that is why the change was made it seems like a rather light change compared to what those who are driven by envy wrought.

Yea no sorry this spectacularly terrible analysis leaves out one critical fact. Raiders have been SPOILED for years and without lfr and y extension the mltiple difficulty model raids would have been gutted to hell and back. The game revolves around you guys and they cater to you as much as they possible can and that includes lfr but no raiders don't get shit...

[SoulSoBreezy]

The only thing wrong with multiple difficulties imo is designing the game around players having to do two or more of them. We shouldn't even be able to do the same raid in two different difficulties on any given week imo.

This's similar to the flight argument, though.
"If you think flying sucks, don't fly."

No one has to do multiple difficulties if they don't have to. We've just fooled ourselves into think we did.
We do the next best thing with the time we have.
Before LFR, players cleared the next difficulty down. In BC, players cleared the previous raid.

It'll always be something.

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Yea no sorry this spectacularly terrible analysis leaves out one critical fact. Raiders have been SPOILED for years and without lfr and y extension the mltiple difficulty model raids would have been gutted to hell and back. The game revolves around you guys and they cater to you as much as they possible can and that includes lfr but no raiders don't get shit...

We'll never know =)
It could have been hellscream's will all over again, with mid to high end raiders frantically trying to "beat the clock," clearing the raid before the hellscream buff got high enough for even the filthy casuals to down the garrosh/archie.

[Bill Cypher]

In practice, what you say is true. Like I've been saying, this argument exists in places like forums between we would-be analysts and armchair devs who look at the whole picture, decide what we think is best for players and push those thoughts. This includes me =(.
And yeah it harms the community. Look at this thread and a few LFR threads. Blah blah blah.

What community does it harm? Wow is to large and varied a game to be "a" community but many. Raiders have always had a amazing community. We look out for each other and compete with one another. We offer recommendations to other guilds when we have members to leave due to no longer being able to make times or their play falls off. Our community is as strong as it has ever been.

It is when you leave the communities that focus on a certain level of play like raiders and pvpers that everything collapses. Are you suggesting that raiders wanting to not be a part of the general population is the problem?

The last time I did anything beyond a daily dungeon for valor with the community was a lfr for a music roll. Believe it or not being told to kill myself because i was "showing off" or the wonderful revelations of people telling me my mother was a slut does not endear me to the "community"

There isn't a problem with the raiders community I am not sure why we are talked about so much by the rest of the community.

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Yea no sorry this spectacularly terrible analysis leaves out one critical fact. Raiders have been SPOILED for years and without lfr and y extension the mltiple difficulty model raids would have been gutted to hell and back. The game revolves around you guys and they cater to you as much as they possible can and that includes lfr but no raiders don't get shit...

We get less and less content each expansion how is that being spoiled? Why do you blame us for your decay?

[Sencha]

Multiple difficulties for the same content (dungeons, raids) is the laziest design to artificially increase the longevity of the game.

They just copied it from diablo. While it is just acceptable in hack and slash games, it's not in MMORPG. People get bored quite fast doing the same thing with higher numbers.

[brunnor]

Mmos are supposed to be an environment where players can have fun regardless of what difficulty setting you call fun without having to pander to people who base their personal self-worth on everyone else not being able to do something.

WoW(and WoW clones) is the only MMORPG who does that. Saying that all are supposed to do that is just a sheer lack of knowledge about the MMORPG genre.

[SoulSoBreezy]

I think its people who make it mythic or bust... most of it comes down to envy. Every players seems to want mythic gear regardless of how skilled they are or what content they are running.

Your argument turning into some weird "us versus you" thin that I don't want to touch, so I'll go with this instead.
I don't think it's envy. Players weren't upset about mythic gear being unobtainable, but that the experience was lacking. LFR felt *too* easy, which does strange things to player behavior. And limiting rewards to (imo) an inferior level of gear was pretty offputting, even to players like me who did LFR for at least transmog colors.