Mythic Archimonde Help Requested

[Nitros14]

Awesome this gives me a ton to think about thank you!

For the second doomfire do you ever have trouble getting it down before 15 stacks? Our positioning in that moment might give us some wonky dps breaks, we need to optimize that moment as well (assuming we go two doomfire route)

As people have gotten better at the fight we get 20/21 stacks of doomfire pretty much every pull now.

[Adramelch]

Awesome this gives me a ton to think about thank you!

For the second doomfire do you ever have trouble getting it down before 15 stacks? Our positioning in that moment might give us some wonky dps breaks, we need to optimize that moment as well (assuming we go two doomfire route)

If everyone expects it and swaps to it fast, then you shouldn't get more than 12-13 stacks. We were constantly aiming for 10 on every single doomfire, before the ilvl upgrades and we got it right a lot of times. People will tell you that "I'm swapping to it etc etc" but in reality, they often aren't ready for it. I mean, people get a proc that lasts 10 seconds, doomfire spawns in 5, and instead of saving it for the doomfire, they dump it on the boss. Stuff like that can and will make the difference.

[Broccoliz]

If everyone expects it and swaps to it fast, then you shouldn't get more than 12-13 stacks. We were constantly aiming for 10 on every single doomfire, before the ilvl upgrades and we got it right a lot of times. People will tell you that "I'm swapping to it etc etc" but in reality, they often aren't ready for it. I mean, people get a proc that lasts 10 seconds, doomfire spawns in 5, and instead of saving it for the doomfire, they dump it on the boss. Stuff like that can and will make the difference.

So true.... I call those people "special snowflakes" and it is a great pet peeve. I will be sure to reiterate that.

[LenytheMage]

Your DK Odd is using the Forgemaster's Insignia from Mythic Blackhand, while it was good in BRF not quite the trinket he would want to bring to to Archie. Tell him to get a UeH, even a heroic or normal one would be better than that trinket and it great on pretty much ever single fight. Both may want to try UeH/Grontooth Warhorn as there trinket choices, it tends to work out nicely. Also, if he plans to stay unholy he should enchant/gem multistrike instead of mastery.

BoS would also help if you plan to try the 1 doomfire strat again. They can pre-soak the pool with AMS instantly have breath going and it would be a huge increase in boss damage.

My guild did the four healers two doom fire strat for our first kill, we used a disc priest and a holy pally as fire soakers. Biggest thing to watch for was one of them over soaking and not having a cool down (especially during wrought) and dying to the fire. It was mostly cleave 1st doomfire using mage crystals/soul cap, extra damage to stop ring split, cleave/dot up 1st deathcaller, nuke 2nd doomfire, cleave 2nd deathcaller until you phase and then hard focus it. Getting 3/4 doom fires would make it much harder though.

[Sinthetik]

I love it when people say guilds progressing on X or Y boss are garbage players. Ever heard of turnover? Real life job changes? Having to take time to recruit and regear/reprogress? Not everyone has the luxury of keeping a 20 man core with very little turnover for a tier this long. My raiders are not garbage, and we've been through a great deal of rebuilding to get back to where the guild I'm GM of used to be. I applaud any guild currently working on Arch. You are still in the 5% of the playerbase that will ever see this content and it is a testament to your guild and leaderships tenacity that you are still pushing. Bravo and ignore the peanut gallery who says because you aren't World top 50 you stink. It's simply a garbage thing to say.

[LenytheMage]

Don't really see anyone being unreasonable, mostly kind, if a bit harshly worded in some places, advice or things people noticed (incorrect talent usage, gear choices, or strat plans)

[Adramelch]

Nobody said that his players are bad. But there's a difference in skill between the average player of a say top 300 guild and a top 1400 guild. The fact that they can't (yet) push for 2 doomfires with 4 healers, or 1 doomfire with 3 healers+lust is some indication of that. We got to 54% our first night of progress (3hour raids) before the ilvl increase and they still haven't seen arguably the hardest part of the fight (wroughts and chains overlapping).

We didn't say they are bad players, but us offering advice based solely on our experience and expectation is not as helpful as trying to gauge and account for the level of players the guild possesses.

[Broccoliz]

Nobody said that his players are bad. But there's a difference in skill between the average player of a say top 300 guild and a top 1400 guild. The fact that they can't (yet) push for 2 doomfires with 4 healers, or 1 doomfire with 3 healers+lust is some indication of that. We got to 54% our first night of progress (3hour raids) before the ilvl increase and they still haven't seen arguably the hardest part of the fight (wroughts and chains overlapping).

We didn't say they are bad players, but us offering advice based solely on our experience and expectation is not as helpful as trying to gauge and account for the level of players the guild possesses.

I'm guessing you were also able to optimize roster out of 30+ choices so could stack Mages/rogues/etc ... as well as no doubt a difference in experience and thus skill, so I'm not offended. Being able to pick and choose specs is also a wonderful luxury we don't have to help optimize burst in the first 45 seconds. There are many factors skill being one as you guys are probably some of the most talented raiders, but fairly confident anyone on Archi is hardly "underperforming" unless you are comparing them to world 500 guilds. But like I said I'm not offended and don't mind the harsh wording at all, I just want the advice and to kill the boss don't care how it's wrapped.

I do appreciate the kind words and defense, that was noble and what you said is certainly true. I appreciate your kind words and hope karma does too

[WarcraftMages]

I think 4 healing and lusting on pull is just too much. For me, the 3 possibilities would be:

1) 3 heal + lust and push for 1 doomfire
2) 3 heal with 2 doomfires and save lust
3) 4 heal, push for 2 doomfires and save lust

I'd go for either of the first 2.

We tried the second, found it too inconsistent in phase 2 with our healers. I imagine most people progressing on it right now are in guilds with quite a few underperforming players.

I was thinking about this from a purely theoretical standpoint and I believe the best idea currently is the 2nd because those phases are doable anyway, they do not have any enrage mechanics and people might be fooled bloodlust is best because they just go to later phases faster, but that does not mean it is better than learning the first phases better in order to be better in the fight in general. It might even have a chance to not get a 2nd if people are too optimal on their DPS.

The only real objection I can find is in the possibility the last phase is easier than anticipated. If it's true what they say that that phase is too easy lately it might not be any big help to keep bloodlust for that. However, it's also possible that those that say it's easy are just people that cleared it before so they find no difficulty in any phase anyway.

As I see it now it can go either way. We can see if the 2nd is doable and switch to something else if it doesn't work. But knowing my guild, we will probably avoid bloodlust since we have a tendency to learn mechanics first before trying to bypass them, unless it's something too reliable like bypassing Iskar's add.

- - - Updated - - -

I love it when people say guilds progressing on X or Y boss are garbage players. Ever heard of turnover? Real life job changes? Having to take time to recruit and regear/reprogress?

Nobody said that his players are bad. But there's a difference in skill between the average player of a say top 300 guild and a top 1400 guild.

Sinthetik is right, but, Adramelch is right about the average. There are guilds out there that raid mythic only for 2 or 3 days a week or, they started raiding very recently. That minority of guilds does not necessarily have to follow tactics intended for low skilled guilds.

I'm not going to name names but I'm certain for years now some guilds in the world top 10 are decisively better than the occasional world 1st. As they say you may not be the first, but you might be the best.

Another good example is a guild that only raids 3 days a week and is world 150. It is very likely they would beat a top 20 guild that raided for 6 days a week.

[Nitros14]

Hooray it's finally dead after 257 pulls.



Used 4 healers 2 doomfires no lust at the start. Seemed most consistent, having the lust in the last phase is nice.

Don't underestimate the last phase. If you have any thatguys in the raid it can be bad. Probably wiped 80 times in it.

[Adramelch]

Don't underestimate the last phase. If you have any thatguys in the raid it can be bad. Probably wiped 80 times in it.

Congrats on the kill.
We still get our fair share of wipes (3-4 per week), and we're 10 kills in. There's a set pattern in the phase, but it is kinda hectic, and people are often going to derp.

@Broccoliz: I'm not in that high a guild to have options in what classes we bring. That said, your comp in particular is not ideal which definitely hampers your progress.

In regards with the level of skill in various guilds, again I don't mean his players are bad (as someone said they're still in the top 5% of the raiding community), but for example, them not realizing that the ring didn't hit the doomfire in their best try (which their DPSers should have realise it in my opinion even without looking at Skada/logs) shows something. That's not even a matter of skill, rather an attention to detail. To that effect, when I, personally, offer advice, I do try to take such things into account.

I'm not even a top tier player myself, my guild is rank 349, so I'm not trying to be elitist by any means.

[Broccoliz]

In regards with the level of skill in various guilds, again I don't mean his players are bad (as someone said they're still in the top 5% of the raiding community), but for example, them not realizing that the ring didn't hit the doomfire in their best try (which their DPSers should have realise it in my opinion even without looking at Skada/logs) shows something. That's not even a matter of skill, rather an attention to detail. To that effect, when I, personally, offer advice, I do try to take such things into account

Valid - That's definitely my failure as raid lead not the raid as a whole - it was what 16th pull, and 15 times prior when doomfire was alive at ring explosion the damage was split, and pull 16 when the same thing happens doomfire is alive at ring explosion then dies immediately after explosion, we assume ring hit it (as no one is staring at boss health on these pulls). I appreciate the help and will try to be more aware of what is actually happening like the ring example you provided. (Of course, there are many factors in why we are not 13/13 and other teams are, skill/experience being one - one worth noting also being that three night guilds have had 33 extra days in HFC than us,and I'm guessing they raid more than 3 hours or days some weeks to push content - it makes sense after spending 100 less hours in the instance we are behind in some skill buckets, hopefully we will get there too thanks to help from you smart people).

I'm asking for strat advice for our comp and performance thus far (which is not top world performance for sure), and you have provided a lot of that so thank you, that's awesome

Thanks for the video Nitro, appreciate you sharing! I'll check it out tonight and PM you if I have any questions.

[Deja Thoris]

It's valid advice Broccoliz. Stop being so butthurt. If you don't like the advice then move on quietly, no need to be a bitch about it.

People go out of their way to check logs with good intentions and you come up with shit like "I would hope after spending 100 more hours than us in the instance you would be much more skilled"

Heres some strat advice. Check the fucking logs yourself and stop posting for help every 15 wipes.

[Infracted] - Nobleshield

[Broccoliz]

Deja, You must have misread my comment. I agreed and thanked Adra multiple times. I took no offense and agreed on many points, but also appreciate having the opportunity to offer a different perspective. No need to get toxic, I certainly wasn't though apologize if it came off that way. Asking for help in a community of players more knowledgeable than myself is one reason mmo is here and so awesome. I frequently try and help threads of people stuck on bosses we have on farm to return the favor. I appreciate your help from past posts as well and hope you can re read my post with the voice it was intended to be spoken in.

[Deja Thoris]

Deja, You must have misread my comment. I agreed and thanked Adra multiple times. I took no offense and agreed on many points, but also appreciate having the opportunity to offer a different perspective. No need to get toxic, I certainly wasn't though apologize if it came off that way. Asking for help in a community of players more knowledgeable than myself is one reason mmo is here and so awesome. I frequently try and help threads of people stuck on bosses we have on farm to return the favor. I appreciate your help from past posts as well and hope you can re read my post with the voice it was intended to be spoken in.

Yea apologies for the overreaction. What hes trying to get at is that the phase revolves around killing the doomfire asap and pushing the boss asap. Knowing what the ring did and didn't hit is kinda critical.

[Broccoliz]

It's all good man, thanks for the help! Some of our watchers were watching recount for it this week, and managed to nail it almost every time. We 4 healed, no lust at start, and got him phased before the third doomfire/second shadowfel burst. Big improvement. We also saw the last phase Granted, a third of the raid was dead including both tanks.... but hey, progression.

Speaking of tank deaths, we have our disc soaking first fire which is working out perfectly, and off tank soaking second, but the main tank at the time is getting wrecked. We are trying to save externals for the chains during wrought chaos, so not sure if anyone has any tips for our tanks during this "get rekt" period where they have a lot of action on them? Should we put someone else on that second fire patch during p2?

https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports...m9Pfb#fight=34

And of course, I know we need to work on our flames of argus interrupting. The current plan is to have a ret stun go out and nuke him, with interrupts for any % left after that. Granted we have only seen that add a few times, and we will need to "relax" and "clean it up" to do him properly.

[Adramelch]

Especially with 4 healers, they only part in which healing CDs are needed is in that Wrought+Chains overlap, so my tactic would be to overlap a couple of CDs there to keep the raid stable and then have healers focus on healing the Chains. That should free up the externals for the tanks. But even if you still need externals on the Chains, you have 4 Sacs, 1 Cocoon (that one works better on the Chains anyway), 1 Ironbark, 1 Pain Sup and 1 Vigi. That's a total of 8 externals, so even if you use one on every single chain at the 2nd chains, you still have 5 left to use on the tanks. Given that barely any externals are needed in p1 or p3, that should be enough.

So basically, even in the worst case scenario of your tanks getting gimped more often than they should, you can afford to have an external on every single chain of the 2nd set (they should also use personals - mages need extra attention cause they basically have nothing), on every single Deathcaller and on every single Allure soaking by tanks (so 9 externals).

The way we deal with the Overfiend is that we just passively cleave it down. It has next to no health, and, if I'm not mistaken, his casts are health-based (every 25% or sth) so the tank can generally handle it by himself, with the odd ranged keeping tabs on it, in case you need to move.

Edit: Forgot to account for Hand of Purity being in the same tier as Clemency. This barely changes anything though, as you can have a hand of purity on both soakers for every single set of Allures, so they shouldn't need any other externals.

So my plan would be:

Hand of Purity for both soakers (you have 2 paladins)
Cocoon and 2 Sacs for the 2nd set of chains (although you really shouldn't need all 3)
Pain Sup, Vigi and Ironbark respectively for each of the 3 Deathcallers (swap Pain Sup and Vigi depending on who tank is on the deathcaller each time)

[Nitros14]

It's all good man, thanks for the help! Some of our watchers were watching recount for it this week, and managed to nail it almost every time. We 4 healed, no lust at start, and got him phased before the third doomfire/second shadowfel burst. Big improvement. We also saw the last phase Granted, a third of the raid was dead including both tanks.... but hey, progression.

Speaking of tank deaths, we have our disc soaking first fire which is working out perfectly, and off tank soaking second, but the main tank at the time is getting wrecked. We are trying to save externals for the chains during wrought chaos, so not sure if anyone has any tips for our tanks during this "get rekt" period where they have a lot of action on them? Should we put someone else on that second fire patch during p2?

https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports...m9Pfb#fight=34

And of course, I know we need to work on our flames of argus interrupting. The current plan is to have a ret stun go out and nuke him, with interrupts for any % left after that. Granted we have only seen that add a few times, and we will need to "relax" and "clean it up" to do him properly.

On the second wrought chaos, I yell at the people with chains to use their biggest defensive cooldown and/or immunities. We also throw rallying cry and devotion aura at it before the second tick hits. You don't have rally but you could use a revival or tranq and some of your billion AG's from shamans.

Externals are for the tanks, use them liberally while deathcallers are up.

All your 3 minute raid cooldowns should be back up for 3rd and especially 4th infernals where you'll need them.

Disc+Tank is ideal for fire soaking because it keeps your dps on the boss/adds full time. You don't want to get a fourth wrought, it lines up with allure and is super bad.

Edit: Also if a mage gets shackled torment during the second wrought, just ice block the second and third tick. It's not worth the hassle of trying to keep them alive with externals.

[Adramelch]

Edit: Also if a mage gets shackled torment during the second wrought, just ice block the second and third tick. It's not worth the hassle of trying to keep them alive with externals.

Was under the impression that Ice Block breaks the chain (invis surely does), but I don't play a mage so I don't have any personal experience.

Edit: Never mind, it doesn't.

[Crillam]

1: 4 doomfiers? wow ehm well you should only get 2. You can try poping hero there if you really struggle but then last phase becomes a problem cuz you cant handle 4 infernals to many times.

2:The soakers my guild use is our bear tank and our resto druid, no dpsers here.

3:I dont really know :P

4: YES every1 should get the golden orb. Every1 can take the dmg and that orb saves lifes I tell ya!

5:That is how my guild does it.

6:exorsus, by far the best and easiest way. That grid that comes up is easy to follow, should not even have any casualties there.

7:It all depends how you guild is doing DPS wise. My guild pop ring at start and explode just before first add so boss takes all the dmg, then we pop ring at 55% when adds spawn and then later on the 3rd wave of infernals (the first time 4 infernal spawns) and we use hero on our 4th and last infernal spawn.

8: my guild tried that 85% thingy, did not work out so we just burned him.

9:It depends, if you feel confident and got resses, sure sac a tank. We sometimes does that but we rather just save the ress for later if a tank or dps really dies.

10: Macro is not really neccesary. In first phase ignore add, aslong there aint 2 alive at the same time. In second phase kill deathcaller whne he spawns but IF a Overfiend is alive at the same time he is prio 1# and the dogs is just AoE, ranged job to take care of. And in last phase there are only stars and infernals but they are never up at the same time. But adds should allwyas be prio 1# over boss exept in phase 1.

11: I dont know of any addon for the dance, we have our RL and 1 healer calling steps, but you should get the addon "Mark of the legion helper" for mak of the legion in last phase, really makes things simple so you can't fail.