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  1. #41
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Kasierith View Post
    Looks like Turkey is picking up how the United States negotiates. It's surprising how much people focus on Russia's more evidently grandstanding activities when there's a country far more hostile towards the EU making far more significant movements to gain influence in the region.
    Isnt country bashing against the rules?
    Because the way I read this is you country bashing the Great US of A.

  2. #42
    Quote Originally Posted by Skroe View Post
    Perfectly put.

    You know this kind of reminds me of how Europe played softball with Tsipras stunts in Greece, until the last second of the last minute, when they said "okay, then default", and over night Tsipras became... oddly, essentiall an EU agent in Greece and did almost everything they wanted? Because he had no negotiating position other than what the EU allowed him to have for that entire period of drama?

    Europe should be less afraid to throw it's weight and power around. It's okay to use your size to step on bad actors seeking to extort you. It doesn't make Europe bad people. It makes them not-suckers.
    Haha... fuck that. You know who gets blamed for such things? Germany. Thanks, mate. Really, great idea. Totally loving it. It's not like we have enough idiots running around Germany is bullying everyone else around.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Nymrohd View Post
    The lack of a clear position distinctly hurt Turkey. The way Greece was treated since 2009 has not in any way "accommodated Greece"; it has accommodated French and German banking interests. If there was a clear and hardline, either to help or to evict, it would have been better for Greece either way. THere is a time for soft policies but that time is never when there is a crisis. The problem is, Europe has NO leadership (no, not even Merkel, she is just a tiny bit stronger than the rest).
    The English disagree. Merkel is just one funny moustache away from being Hitler reincarnated if you believe some of the people posting here...
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  3. #43
    Quote Originally Posted by Kasierith View Post
    Looks like Turkey is picking up how the United States negotiates. It's surprising how much people focus on Russia's more evidently grandstanding activities when there's a country far more hostile towards the EU making far more significant movements to gain influence in the region.
    Not sure if trolling. Sure, Turkey might be blackmailing EU for refugee crisis but Turkey's inconvenience towards EU is just about that. Russia, on the other hand, clashes with West in pretty much every theater. Besides, Turkey has neither the potential nor the motivation to invade any part of Europe. Same can not be said for Russia.

  4. #44
    The Normal Kasierith's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kuntantee View Post
    Not sure if trolling. Sure, Turkey might be blackmailing EU for refugee crisis but Turkey's inconvenience towards EU is just about that. Russia, on the other hand, clashes with West in pretty much every theater. Besides, Turkey has neither the potential nor the motivation to invade any part of Europe. Same can not be said for Russia.
    Since when did a country have to invade another country to be hostile towards them? With the odd exception of Greece in a number of issues, Turkey has never been friendly towards the EU.

    And the idea that Russia is going to go and invade Europe is mindless propaganda and fearmongering. Russia was barely able to exert its influence and take control of a region already with a vast majority of Russians with pure Russian infrastructure in a non-NATO state, with massive international backlash and ramifications on its economy. Russia is also ultimately dependent on the EU for its long term sustainability. Turkey, on the other hand, was able to flagrantly violate NATO law and murder Russian pilots, and then instead of backing down issue a decree that they would do the same for any further incursions, and then use their current position to strongarm better deals with the EU.



    Quote Originally Posted by woozie21 View Post
    Isnt country bashing against the rules?
    Because the way I read this is you country bashing the Great US of A.
    It... isn't country bashing to point out that the United States operates in a certain way on an international level, in that they repeatedly and consistently use their economic influence to force certain outcomes in treaties and agreements by strongarming favorable deals. And interpreting it in such a way really just demonstrates how clueless one is in how the US operates.

  5. #45
    Quote Originally Posted by Kasierith View Post
    Since when did a country have to invade another country to be hostile towards them? With the odd exception of Greece in a number of issues, Turkey has never been friendly towards the EU.

    And the idea that Russia is going to go and invade Europe is mindless propaganda and fearmongering. Russia was barely able to exert its influence and take control of a region already with a vast majority of Russians with pure Russian infrastructure in a non-NATO state, with massive international backlash and ramifications on its economy. Russia is also ultimately dependent on the EU for its long term sustainability. Turkey, on the other hand, was able to flagrantly violate NATO law and murder Russian pilots, and then instead of backing down issue a decree that they would do the same for any further incursions, and then use their current position to strongarm better deals with the EU.
    You need to get your hyperbole in check. You're embarassing yourself.
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  6. #46
    Quote Originally Posted by Kasierith View Post
    Since when did a country have to invade another country to be hostile towards them? With the odd exception of Greece in a number of issues, Turkey has never been friendly towards the EU.
    Turkey has hardly ever been the otherwise (non-friendly) towards Europe. Not sure which alternate history you are reading...

  7. #47
    The Lightbringer Cerilis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Adarian View Post
    anyone else think it's time to retake Constantinople?
    Why would anyone want to do that? D: Besides the obvious, isn't there a fucking big huge earthquake overdue in that region anyway?

  8. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by Adarian View Post
    anyone else think it's time to retake Constantinople?
    Retaking Constantinople effectively means sacking the Fatih district of Istanbul. Not sure if it would help anyone but it would look incredibly silly
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  9. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by Skroe View Post

    Europe should be less afraid to throw it's weight and power around. It's okay to use your size to step on bad actors seeking to extort you. It doesn't make Europe bad people. It makes them not-suckers.
    yeah the 'giant dwarf'.
    Wish we would just learn to be the giant giant.
    all the EU has to say to Turkey is 'Adios internal market' - Turkey could lose as much as a third of it GDP...

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Slant View Post
    Haha... fuck that. You know who gets blamed for such things? Germany. Thanks, mate. Really, great idea. Totally loving it. It's not like we have enough idiots running around Germany is bullying everyone else around.
    Internal politics is different to external politics.

  10. #50
    Quote Originally Posted by goblinpaladin View Post
    yeah the 'giant dwarf'.
    Wish we would just learn to be the giant giant.
    all the EU has to say to Turkey is 'Adios internal market' - Turkey could lose as much as a third of it GDP...
    Not sure what you are trying to say, here are some numbers for you. Turkey's GDP is ~€800 bn. Exports to Europe is less than €75 bn. Turkey holds a strategic position in terms of logistics. Trade goods exported from Europe to other parts of the world use Turkish ports as well as land routes. If you cut trade ties with Turkey, you will pay more for logistics, lose a market with ~80-million people in it, next to no chance to exert your influence over ME or be a decision maker in the issues.

    I also disagree regarding EU being a giant. You are not simply because EU is not a unified political entity.

    Reading your posts, you seem like living in an alternate reality. You are sucking Erdogan's dick (I am sorry but that's what you are doing) not because of your bad politicians but the nature, the reality and the capabilities of today's EU.

    Now, do not get me wrong. Blackmailing a EU is not a good decision, just like shooting down a Russian jet. Turkey will pay for it, politically, not economically (safe for Russia). Erdogan has actually managed to have bad relations with EU, Russia, USA, Iran and Syria at the same time. This is how-not-to-do-foreign-politics 101.
    Last edited by Kuntantee; 2016-02-10 at 02:07 PM.

  11. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kuntantee View Post
    Not sure what you are trying to say, here are some numbers for you. Turkey's GDP is ~€800 bn. Exports to Europe is less than €75 bn. Turkey holds a strategic position in terms of logistics. Trade goods exported from Europe to other parts of the world use Turkish ports as well as land routes. If you cut trade ties with Turkey, you will pay more for logistics, lose a market with ~80-million people in it, next to no chance to exert your influence over ME or be a decision maker in the issues.
    yeah you have 80 million people.
    The EU is 500 million.
    as for the GDP, What happens to the logistics if you are out of the market?
    Whatever the EU loses by fucking you over, Does not matter - because it hurts you way more

    as for ME influence...
    I say again 500 million - you can be bypassed rather trivially if needed.

    I also disagree regarding EU being a giant. You are not simply because EU is not a unified political entity.
    The full quote is 'Economical giant, political dwarf' - In case you didn't know, The EZ is the worlds largest economy, the EU is bigger.

    Reading your posts, you seem like living in an alternate reality. You are sucking Erdogan's dick (I am sorry but that's what you are doing) not because of your bad politicians but the nature, the reality and the capabilities of today's EU.
    its the politicians - all our problems are internal -

  12. #52
    Quote Originally Posted by goblinpaladin View Post
    yeah you have 80 million people.
    The EU is 500 million.
    as for the GDP, What happens to the logistics if you are out of the market?
    Whatever the EU loses by fucking you over, Does not matter - because it hurts you way more

    as for ME influence...
    I say again 500 million - you can be bypassed rather trivially if needed.
    "It hurts Russia more", "It hurts Turkey more". Seems quite similar to Erdogan's "0-problem-with-neighbors" policy. I won't even comment on "bypassing" part, it's beyond ridiculous...Moving on, we are not out of market. EU is just one of the markets. Trouble yourself not for inane issues. What you are suggesting will not happen because economy is more important than national pride.

    Quote Originally Posted by goblinpaladin View Post
    The full quote is 'Economical giant, political dwarf' - In case you didn't know, The EZ is the worlds largest economy, the EU is bigger.
    Your economical power brings you prosperity and nothing else. You are not a superpower and you can not dictate the conditions, unlike USA or Russia (up to a certain degree). This is the precise thing I am trying to say.

    For the record, having prosperity over influence is way better. I suggest you not to diverge from the route you are currently taking.
    Last edited by Kuntantee; 2016-02-10 at 02:24 PM.

  13. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kuntantee View Post
    "It hurts Russia more", "It hurts Turkey more". Seems quite similar to Erdogan's "0-problem-with-neighbors" policy. I won't even comment on "bypassing" part, it's beyond ridiculous...Moving on, we are not out of market. EU is just one of the markets. Trouble yourself not for inane issues. What you are suggesting will not happen because economy is more important than national pride.



    Your economical power brings you prosperity and nothing else. You are not a superpower and you can not dictate the conditions, unlike USA or Russia (up to a certain degree). This is the precise thing I am trying to say.

    For the record, having prosperity over influence is way better. I suggest you not to diverge from the route you are currently taking.
    EU is just one of the markets, that is true:

    The top export destinations of Turkey are Germany ($15.5B), Iraq ($11.9B), the United Kingdom ($8.92B), France ($7.7B) and Italy ($7.26B). The top import origins are Germany ($25.8B), China ($24.3B), Russia ($14.5B), Italy ($13.2B) and the United States ($12.1B).

    At least you will still have Iraq to sent stuff to, no matter if you just lost 39.4 billion in exports and 39 billion in imports.
    lol.

  14. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kasierith View Post
    Since when did a country have to invade another country to be hostile towards them? With the odd exception of Greece in a number of issues, Turkey has never been friendly towards the EU.

    And the idea that Russia is going to go and invade Europe is mindless propaganda and fearmongering. Russia was barely able to exert its influence and take control of a region already with a vast majority of Russians with pure Russian infrastructure in a non-NATO state, with massive international backlash and ramifications on its economy. Russia is also ultimately dependent on the EU for its long term sustainability. Turkey, on the other hand, was able to flagrantly violate NATO law and murder Russian pilots, and then instead of backing down issue a decree that they would do the same for any further incursions, and then use their current position to strongarm better deals with the EU.
    Russia has the capacity to inflict serious damage upon Europe, noone would dispute that. The only unclear thing is what are Moscow's intentions. And those are not looking extremely friendly. Russia has conducted a number of highly provocative actions towards Europe - mock bombing runs over Sweden, pointing nukes at Denmark, stationing more Iskanders in Crimea and Kaliningrad, not to mention a proxy war against an EU-aligned government. These are not something that friendly governments do; its what rival governments do, in order to intimidate - hence, fearmongering. The degree of hostility depends on subjective criteria, but objectively, relations haven't been this "cold" since the Cold War.

    Personally, I don't think Russia will invade anyone (besides maybe Belarus), but you can't really hold it against any politician for trying to capitalise on Russia's recent misbehaviour. More generally, you'd always prefer to trust your own capabilities, rather than the intentions of your rivals. This is very much true for Russia as well.

    As for Turkey - it is also unfriendly, and has a very unpleasant individual at the helm; and it did look over NATO's guidelines on RoE. Hasn't violated anything, though. Also, it's very unlikely that Turkey would've shot down that plane, if Russia hadn't already made a number of other incursions into Turkish airspace prior to the downing, in addition to locking onto Turkish fighters - both considered highly provocative actions.

    As for Erdogan using the refugee crisis to strongarm the EU - of course he is. This changes nothing, because it is nothing new. Politicians will be politicians. Meanwhile, Turkey still bears the brunt of the refugee crisis (and of terrorist attacks), while the EU has no reason not to use its own leverage. It has and it does, actually, to some degree - Ankara's EU ambitions are held in check as much by its own politicians as by Brussels (much to Erdogan's displeasure).
    Last edited by mmoc126e3f25d2; 2016-02-10 at 04:19 PM.

  15. #55
    Quote Originally Posted by Slant View Post
    Haha... fuck that. You know who gets blamed for such things? Germany. Thanks, mate. Really, great idea. Totally loving it. It's not like we have enough idiots running around Germany is bullying everyone else around.
    .
    Being resented or hated is part of being powerful. And right now, due to it's position in Europe and the long tenure of Merkel, not to mention it's wealth, Germany is at it's most powerful in the post-War era.

    I mean, don't being hated doesn't exactly change anything. Look at my country. Put aside the incredible arrogance of Obama's "America is back!" (whatever that meant) foreign policy campaign in his first term... has the swing in public opinion about the United States - from profoundly negative to somewhat-positive actually changed the United States' ability to do anything? No it hasn't.

    "The Street" never matters. Be it the Arab Street, the European Street, the American Street or whatever else.

    The only consequences that states feel is those put on them by other states, and there is very, very rarely a direct line between what the "Street" wants and what national policy is.

    Point is, Germany - or any other country for that matter - shouldn't embrace being resented. But neither should it avoid specific policies BECAUSE the result would be it being resented. People are fickle and move on.

    And that's with respect to internal relations. Turkey, as others point out, is not in the EU, so the EU as a whole should, if it is in it's interest, step on Turkey like a bug, rather than like a country with a fraction of the population, GDP and global influence, dictate terms.

  16. #56
    Quote Originally Posted by Skroe View Post
    Being resented or hated is part of being powerful. And right now, due to it's position in Europe and the long tenure of Merkel, not to mention it's wealth, Germany is at it's most powerful in the post-War era.

    I mean, don't being hated doesn't exactly change anything. Look at my country. Put aside the incredible arrogance of Obama's "America is back!" (whatever that meant) foreign policy campaign in his first term... has the swing in public opinion about the United States - from profoundly negative to somewhat-positive actually changed the United States' ability to do anything? No it hasn't.

    "The Street" never matters. Be it the Arab Street, the European Street, the American Street or whatever else.

    The only consequences that states feel is those put on them by other states, and there is very, very rarely a direct line between what the "Street" wants and what national policy is.

    Point is, Germany - or any other country for that matter - shouldn't embrace being resented. But neither should it avoid specific policies BECAUSE the result would be it being resented. People are fickle and move on.

    And that's with respect to internal relations. Turkey, as others point out, is not in the EU, so the EU as a whole should, if it is in it's interest, step on Turkey like a bug, rather than like a country with a fraction of the population, GDP and global influence, dictate terms.
    Being resented is not really a part of being powerful. Nor do I think it's a desireable state to abuse your power whenever you see fit. "Might makes right" is a despicable scheme that doesn't progress humanity or a nation, it's really just a cheap excuse to not do things properly and be reckless about consequences.

    As for the EU, as others have pointed out, it's an economical giant while at the same time being a political hybrid dwarf mutant with little self esteem. That England torpedoes any ambition the EU may have to represent Europe as a whole doesn't help. It's kind of like Washington saying they condemn the North Korean rocket launch and Texas going "Yeah, fuck Washington, we speak for ourselves and don't like some snobs in DC telling us what to do... oh and we condemn the rocket launch". Totally pointless sabotage of unity while basically agreeing with the overall policy anyway.

    As for Turkey, what people don't understand that while all of this is called "negotiation", the EU membership "negotiations" have failed time and again due to matters that are not negotiable. Turkey has in the past failed basic human right principles and made little effort to combat them. That they're not in the EU is more due to the fact that people like Erdogan keep putting critical journalists in jail to suppress opposition than any "negotiations" that may happen on economical topics.

    To make it clear: Turkey may be an ally in NATO, but as long as they behave like a regime that suppresses opposition, as long as the military has such a strong grasp on the political landscape, as long as prisons in Turkey are inhumane and actual cesspits of violence and torture, as long as Turkey oppresses the Kurds and continues their confrontational politics, they will never be in the EU. There is no debate about those things. There is no moving, no negotiation, not a snowball's chance in hell they'll get into the EU with those things.

    Yet, they keep deluding themselves that they are important enough for the EU to overlook those things. And everytime they're shot down, they get all emotional and start blaming the EU for all kinds of things and expect anyone in the EU to give a shit. We do not. That's why nobody here bat an eyelid when negotiations were halted. Heck, many here thought "Thank god, finally we can put this to rest" because it was getting slightly irritating to watch Turkey run against the wall again and again and again and still not getting the message... it's you, not us. You want in, you conform to our rules. We do not change the rules just for you. End of story.

    But, and this is the funny bit about this thread, the EU never made a big deal out of this. We do not need to embarass Turkey over not being able to provide basic justice and civil rights. They're still an ally in NATO for most of our member countries. So all we do is halt negotiations, notice the lack of emotions or "victory bells". And when they change, we can pick those negotiations up anytime. No big deal. Nobody loses face. All good. We don't need to bully people around to demonstrate "power" or stuff like that. We're in control, we know that and that's enough for us.

    A lesson the US may want to learn.
    Last edited by Slant; 2016-02-11 at 10:44 AM.
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  17. #57
    Quote Originally Posted by Skroe View Post
    has the swing in public opinion about the United States - from profoundly negative to somewhat-positive actually changed the United States' ability to do anything?
    Which country's public opinion shifted from profoundly negative to somewhat positive? I'm asking it seriously, because in this frozen tundra of a country the exact opposite is true. Couple of years ago Obama's America was a-okay-ish, but things have gone downhill fast and the current opinion about it is about as warm as a can of liquid nitrogen. In Arctica. At the peak of nuclear winter.
    В предчувствии движения племен,
    Разломов тверди и кончины мира
    Пою не то, о чем мечтает лира,
    А имена теней и тень имен.

  18. #58
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Hound Archon View Post
    Which country's public opinion shifted from profoundly negative to somewhat positive? I'm asking it seriously, because in this frozen tundra of a country the exact opposite is true. Couple of years ago Obama's America was a-okay-ish, but things have gone downhill fast and the current opinion about it is about as warm as a can of liquid nitrogen. In Arctica. At the peak of nuclear winter.
    think he meant Bush to Obama.

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