[FIRE] Legion Beta Megathread

[Imaskar]

https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports...done&source=28
Here it is attributed to the player, but the damage is so underwhelming. Like.. 2%? really? For the priciest enchant ever?

[Biomega]

https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports...done&source=28
Here it is attributed to the player, but the damage is so underwhelming. Like.. 2%? really? For the priciest enchant ever?

It was hotfixed a few days ago to show up in logs/on meters correctly.

It is currently simming as the overall best choice among enchants. How much of your damage it does isn't relevant for that choice per se - what matters is only how much damage it does compared to whatever else you'd put on your enchant.

[Deleted]

So glad to see the new hotfixes bringing Arcane and Frost upto Fires capacity instead of fire being nerfed!!!

Was scrolling down the changes with one eye open grimacing when i got the the mage section.......

[Skylarking]

Have theorycrafters and what not confirmed that the aftershocks trait is not worth taking?

[Deleted]

Have theorycrafters and what not confirmed that the aftershocks trait is not worth taking?

its worth taking as it is an ok dmg gain for the investment, its just very very very low on the prio list of stuff to get.

[LordAmbrosia]

A mage streamer (Xyronic) was using flamestrike on only 3 targets, when I asked him why he said "cause its right". This goes against all information I've seen about the topic, which people usually say its only better at 8-10. Assuming the ignite will last the whole life of the target, is he right or wrong about this?

[Biomega]

A mage streamer (Xyronic) was using flamestrike on only 3 targets, when I asked him why he said "cause its right". This goes against all information I've seen about the topic, which people usually say its only better at 8-10. Assuming the ignite will last the whole life of the target, is he right or wrong about this?

As a general rule, being "a streamer" does not by itself make you correct in what you do. Many many streamers show glaring misplays all the time, and even high-level raiders can be fairly clueless about certain theorycrafting details.

That being said, when using FS is "right" depends on a variety of factors. If you have Flame Patch and Aftershocks, for example, it's very possible that 3+ targets is already enough. It also depends on how long the mobs are expected to live etc. The number of variables involved is not trivial, and it can be hard to make an exact determination or come up with a simple rule - however, it is very likely that in many scenarios the damage difference is not very large, and so it can be hard to even see the impact of making the mathematically correct choice (because the difference falls within the range of variance).

[LordAmbrosia]

Well I already said that he was using it on mobs that were living long enough for ignite to run its full course, and no he didn't have Flame Patch. I don't really understand how a popular streamer (over 1k viewers) from apparently the top guild in the US can be doing something apparently so wrong and nobody bats an eyelash. Shouldn't he be the last person to be doing this wrong? But he said he was right...

[nickseng]

Well I already said that he was using it on mobs that were living long enough for ignite to run its full course, and no he didn't have Flame Patch. I don't really understand how a popular streamer (over 1k viewers) from apparently the top guild in the US can be doing something apparently so wrong and nobody bats an eyelash. Shouldn't he be the last person to be doing this wrong? But he said he was right...

Again, I don't know him, but i'd take an answer than was shown to be correct mathematically, over something someone said because "it's right"

[Skylarking]

I think i might have too much crit. Doing some emerald night mare and i notice that while running kindling, my combustion hits around 45 second cd left just as flame on is also coming off cd. If i use flame on then combustion comes cd well before flame on like 10-20 seconds or so.

So on pull i use everything - later on flame on is coming off cd, combustion is around the 45-55sec cd mark. So in this situation do i hold flame on or use it? Either way, one is going to wait 10-20 seconds on cooldown.

[Biomega]

I think i might have too much crit.

No you don't.

If you're using Kindling, only use Flame On with Combustion. Let it sit off CD in between.

[Skylarking]

No you don't.

If you're using Kindling, only use Flame On with Combustion. Let it sit off CD in between.

Seems like a waste letting a whole flame on sit off cd for a long time though. Pretty much losing out on an entire flame on cd for every combustion cycle.

[Biomega]

Seems like a waste letting a whole flame on sit off cd for a long time though. Pretty much losing out on an entire flame on cd for every combustion cycle.

It's still a DPS gain over using it.

[Skylarking]

OK then i guess.

[Deleted]

Again, I don't know him, but i'd take an answer than was shown to be correct mathematically, over something someone said because "it's right"

you're fogetting that the so called mathematically correct statement isnt actually supported by showing the math hence it is essentially the same, also when it comes to the sims that might support it you also need to remember that those sims are made using targets that doesnt die and then there is the whole aoe burst(FS) vs maintained aoe(pyroblast) discussion BUT you can always test it in game which tends to be more accurate than any sims imo.

personally ive gotten better results using FS on 3+ targets than using pyroblast but that might just be me, at the end of the day, never trust that ppl's so called math or sims is correct, do your own testing and then make up your mind what is the right way for you, always take sims with a grain of salt.

[Biomega]

at the end of the day, never trust that ppl's so called math or sims is correct, do your own testing and then make up your mind what is the right way for you

This is questionable advice. Unless you are big into maths and simulations yourself, chances are your results will be more inaccurate than those produced by the people dealing with Simcraft at length. Most "testing" people do in game is woefully inadequate, both in terms of statistical data and methodology.

always take sims with a grain of salt

This is actually useful advice. Sims are not meant to be 100% perfect representations of real fights, they are a theoretical testing environment meant to provide useful relative comparisons and data on mechanical interactions. For that, they are a very useful tool and fairly advanced in terms of accuracy. Always keep in mind the RELATIVE nature of sims, though. Don't look to them as much for absolute numbers as for comparisons, but for those comparisons Sims can be extremely useful.

In this concrete case, data suggests a cutoff point for number of targets to Py/FS, and I don't think that surprises anyone. That cutoff point depends on a number of factors, including but not limited to talents chosen, stats involved, fight duration, mob uptime, and so on. It's a somewhat complex process, and consequently I am wary of anyone claiming they can just decide that by looking at "what results you get" - that sort of empirical testing is prone to a considerable margin of error and usually less useful than simulations for making that sort of determination.

[Deleted]

This is questionable advice. Unless you are big into maths and simulations yourself, chances are your results will be more inaccurate than those produced by the people dealing with Simcraft at length. Most "testing" people do in game is woefully inadequate, both in terms of statistical data and methodology.

that depends on how you look at, for example the parameters the game sets for you will always be way more precise than sims simply bcoz its the actual game but the problem then is that you'd need a lot of testing data which is a time sink and then comes the variables like how the tank pulls stuff and the shit the mobs do etc. which is something sims can completely remove. what sims does well imo is to develope an ideal situation for testing, problem is that said ideal situations doesnt exist in the game, so any1 can make arguments for and against something like sims and in-game testing hence why we should all take sims with a grain of salt

[Biomega]

that depends on how you look at, for example the parameters the game sets for you will always be way more precise than sims simply bcoz its the actual game but the problem then is that you'd need a lot of testing data which is a time sink and then comes the variables like how the tank pulls stuff and the shit the mobs do etc. which is something sims can completely remove. what sims does well imo is to develope an ideal situation for testing, problem is that said ideal situations doesnt exist in the game, so any1 can make arguments for and against something like sims and in-game testing hence why we should all take sims with a grain of salt

Sims should always be applied to the personal setup, that's essentially WHY we have the Simcraft tool instead of just a website posting results. While you're right that many variables affect the outcome of your damage output, I highly doubt you can provide useful data more precisely than Simcraft can. Statements like "I did 250k dps with Kindling last run, this run I did 270k with Cinderstorm; that means Cinderstorm is better for me" (<- actual statement by someone I know) are INCREDIBLY imprecise and often just flat-out meaningless. Yet that is the usual kind of result people get from "personalized testing" of the sort you describe. It is misleading and hardly more accurate than any educated guess.

That's not to invalidate your other point of Simcraft being just the starting point of interpretation rather than the end, of course.

[Deleted]

personally ive gotten better results using FS on 3+ targets than using pyroblast but that might just be me,.

I'm the same, but it seems like it should since i have a lot of mastery on my gear due to rng with drops currently. However i do think that the main reason for wildly shifting numbers when it comes to using FS on +3 is conflagration procs, since you have ignite ticking on all three targets immediately when you FS then if you get lucky with conflag procs it can push the damage very high, if you dont get any procs it leaves you still thinking hmmmmm i wonder if its just better to pyro and allow the spread.

Thats what fire is now though, since they have taken the unpredictability away from the burst with combustion it has to have it elsewhere.

[LordAmbrosia]

I don't understand how there can be such a discrepency on this issue. The math is math, it shouldn't be subjective. Like I said repeatedly, people like Xyronic were using FS on 3 mobs that were NOT close to dying at all, and did not have flame patch. That choice is either right or its wrong, theres no middle ground here.