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  1. #1661
    Quote Originally Posted by LordAmbrosia View Post
    I don't understand how there can be such a discrepency on this issue. The math is math, it shouldn't be subjective. Like I said repeatedly, people like Xyronic were using FS on 3 mobs that were NOT close to dying at all, and did not have flame patch. That choice is either right or its wrong, theres no middle ground here.
    You're right, of course. And we have the mathematical solutions.

    The problem is there are so many variables involved that it is quite difficult to correctly make the assessment on the fly. What people seem to be struggling with right now is finding the most solid "rule of thumb" to use without trying to calculate add numbers, predicted add uptime, ignite sizes (both current and potential future) and so on in their head each time they're facing a pack of mobs. Is it 3+? 4+? 5+? With Flame Patch, without? Part of the problem is that the differences are fairly small - however that also means that the wrong choice won't be horribly wrong.

  2. #1662
    Quote Originally Posted by Skylarking View Post
    Seems like a waste letting a whole flame on sit off cd for a long time though. Pretty much losing out on an entire flame on cd for every combustion cycle.
    And what part of you admitting it wouldn't be up for combust if you used it didn't indicate it would be a bigger loss not having it?

    Also there is literally no such thing as "too much crit" for a fire mage at this point.

  3. #1663
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Biomega View Post
    You're right, of course. And we have the mathematical solutions.

    The problem is there are so many variables involved that it is quite difficult to correctly make the assessment on the fly. What people seem to be struggling with right now is finding the most solid "rule of thumb" to use without trying to calculate add numbers, predicted add uptime, ignite sizes (both current and potential future) and so on in their head each time they're facing a pack of mobs. Is it 3+? 4+? 5+? With Flame Patch, without? Part of the problem is that the differences are fairly small - however that also means that the wrong choice won't be horribly wrong.
    it also depends on what it is that is needed, using FS isnt a maintainable option in the long run, hence the dmg from it tends to be more front loaded where the dmg from pyroblast is more back loaded, its the usual aoe burst vs maintainable aoe discussion, in mythic+ dungeons you tend to prefer the aoe burst option bcoz 80% of the time you're dealing with trash, how do you kill a trash pack fast? you burst it down but as you said, either way the option you use wont be horribly wrong which can be both a good and bad thing.

  4. #1664
    Quote Originally Posted by Biomega View Post
    predicted add uptime
    Quote Originally Posted by almara2512 View Post
    how do you kill a trash pack fast? you burst it down but as you said
    For the third time. I'm talking about an AOE situation where the adds will be alive a long time. Where ignite will fully run its course. And xyronic maintains that you should use flamestrike on 3. Everyone knows that FS is better if adds are soon to die, that isn't a question at all.

  5. #1665
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by LordAmbrosia View Post
    For the third time. I'm talking about an AOE situation where the adds will be alive a long time. Where ignite will fully run its course. And xyronic maintains that you should use flamestrike on 3. Everyone knows that FS is better if adds are soon to die, that isn't a question at all.
    and as i wrote in the post you quoted, it depends on what you need, in the situation you mention you obviously want high maintainable aoe/cleave hence pyroblast is your best bet, but in mythic+ and general raiding those kind of situations rarely happen hence FS is the way to go in those situations, the problem is the ppl that simply states that you use FS only in situations where there are 8+ targets which is wrong, it depends on the situation. on fights like il'gynoth, dragon nightmare and the spider roc boss(cant remember the name) there are literally no reason to go the pyroblast except maybe il'gynoth and even then its only 1 add with high hp and 2-3 adds with low hp so you'd prolly be better off using FS anyway.

  6. #1666
    Quote Originally Posted by LordAmbrosia View Post
    For the third time. I'm talking about an AOE situation where the adds will be alive a long time. Where ignite will fully run its course. And xyronic maintains that you should use flamestrike on 3. Everyone knows that FS is better if adds are soon to die, that isn't a question at all.
    Things aren't that simple. What does "a long time" mean? Just 1 Ignite? 2? What about rolling Ignites? How many adds? What talents? How much Mastery?

    The variables involved are not trivial. That's the whole reason it's so difficult to just tell at a glance what to use.

  7. #1667
    Quote Originally Posted by Biomega View Post
    Things aren't that simple. What does "a long time" mean? Just 1 Ignite? 2? What about rolling Ignites? How many adds? What talents? How much Mastery?

    The variables involved are not trivial. That's the whole reason it's so difficult to just tell at a glance what to use.
    If it was 2 ignites, you would always pyroblast on the first one. There's no reason you can't Flame strike for the final ignite. And I said 3 adds no flame patch. over and over and over

  8. #1668
    Quote Originally Posted by LordAmbrosia View Post
    If it was 2 ignites, you would always pyroblast on the first one. There's no reason you can't Flame strike for the final ignite. And I said 3 adds no flame patch. over and over and over
    No matter how often you keep repeating it, "3 adds no flame patch" is not sufficient information to math out which option is superior.

  9. #1669
    IIRC you get slightly more raw damage out of FS on 3 targets but I left room for fudging since you have the possibility of getting Heating Up out of using Pyro on 3 targets which would result in more DPS assuming the targets are living for long enough to refresh Ignite a few times and have the full benefit happen before you run out of instants.

    On 4 FS significantly outweighs Pyro/Ignite damage. Here's some quick math not factoring in everything:

    Pyro, assuming 20% mastery and 60% crit, 3% extra crit damage:

    Base: D = 1.6996*400, I = D*0.2
    1 target = D + I = 815.81
    2 targets = D + I + (8/9)*I = 936.67
    3 targets = D + I + (8/9)*I + (7/9)*I = 1042.42
    4 targets = D + I + (8/9)*I + 2*(7/9)*I = 1148.17
    5 targets = D + I + (8/9)*I + 2*(7/9)*I + (6/9)*I = 1238.82
    10 targets = D + I + (8/9)*I + 2*(7/9)*I + 4*(6/9)*I + 2*(5/9)*I = 1661.83

    FS, assuming 20% mastery and 60% crit, 3% extra crit damage:

    Base: D = 1.636*180, I = D*0.2
    1 target = D + I = 353.38
    2 targets = 2*(D + I) = 706.75
    3 targets = 3*(D + I) = 1060.13
    4 targets = 4*(D + I) = 1413.50
    5 targets = 5*(D + I) = 1766.88
    10 targets = 10*(D + I) = 3533.76

  10. #1670
    Sup guys, got a question.

    So right now, when I'm single target DPSing on a practice dummy I'm hitting about 200k consistent over 5 minutes. I wanted to know if this is decent or not, and if not then what I should do to fix it. Currently my gear isn't gemmed / enchanted so I expect the numbers to go up by a bit. Here is my armory (with my current talent build as well).
    I can't seem to post my armory since I'm a new user but if you search "spooed" on the US armory im the only fire mage there.

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    Quote Originally Posted by lurj View Post
    Sup guys, got a question.

    So right now, when I'm single target DPSing on a practice dummy I'm hitting about 200k consistent over 5 minutes. I wanted to know if this is decent or not, and if not then what I should do to fix it. Currently my gear isn't gemmed / enchanted so I expect the numbers to go up by a bit. Here is my armory (with my current talent build as well).
    I can't seem to post my armory since I'm a new user but if you search "spooed" on the US armory im the only fire mage there.
    Okay, so I've simmed my DPS and it put me right around 200k. So it seems like I'm doing as much damage as I should. My question is: why do people who are my ilvl do like 350k dps on bosses like ursoc? Is the difference between us really just enchants and potions? (I'm a pretty new wow player obviously)

  11. #1671
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Plastkin View Post
    IIRC you get slightly more raw damage out of FS on 3 targets but I left room for fudging since you have the possibility of getting Heating Up out of using Pyro on 3 targets which would result in more DPS assuming the targets are living for long enough to refresh Ignite a few times and have the full benefit happen before you run out of instants.

    On 4 FS significantly outweighs Pyro/Ignite damage. Here's some quick math not factoring in everything:

    Pyro, assuming 20% mastery and 60% crit, 3% extra crit damage:

    Base: D = 1.6996*400, I = D*0.2
    1 target = D + I = 815.81
    2 targets = D + I + (8/9)*I = 936.67
    3 targets = D + I + (8/9)*I + (7/9)*I = 1042.42
    4 targets = D + I + (8/9)*I + 2*(7/9)*I = 1148.17
    5 targets = D + I + (8/9)*I + 2*(7/9)*I + (6/9)*I = 1238.82
    10 targets = D + I + (8/9)*I + 2*(7/9)*I + 4*(6/9)*I + 2*(5/9)*I = 1661.83

    FS, assuming 20% mastery and 60% crit, 3% extra crit damage:

    Base: D = 1.636*180, I = D*0.2
    1 target = D + I = 353.38
    2 targets = 2*(D + I) = 706.75
    3 targets = 3*(D + I) = 1060.13
    4 targets = 4*(D + I) = 1413.50
    5 targets = 5*(D + I) = 1766.88
    10 targets = 10*(D + I) = 3533.76
    so basically, who ever calculated that you only use FS on 8+ targets need to go back to school and relearn math?

  12. #1672
    So how do you do good dps on thrash with 3+targets? I play fire, and boss dps is great but i seem to be always bottom when it comes to thrash pulls.. Guide says to maintain single target dps and let ignite do the rest but the dps is really bad.. Do I spam fire blast and instantly cast pyro to boost my dps? Or would it be better to do the usual fire then pyro rotation?

  13. #1673
    Quote Originally Posted by almara2512 View Post
    so basically, who ever calculated that you only use FS on 8+ targets need to go back to school and relearn math?
    Correct, except that you're gonna be proccing more HS with Pyroblast and hence, adding more Pyro and Ignite damage to the mobs.

    So yeah, if you're standing there letting the ignite run it's course, FS does more damage.

  14. #1674
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Vegas82 View Post
    Cinderstorm and living bomb make a massive difference for multi-target situations.
    cinderstorm isnt always ideal due to how it works.

  15. #1675
    Quote Originally Posted by lockybalboa View Post
    So how do you do good dps on thrash with 3+targets? I play fire, and boss dps is great but i seem to be always bottom when it comes to thrash pulls.. Guide says to maintain single target dps and let ignite do the rest but the dps is really bad.. Do I spam fire blast and instantly cast pyro to boost my dps? Or would it be better to do the usual fire then pyro rotation?
    Quote Originally Posted by Vegas82 View Post
    Cinderstorm and living bomb make a massive difference for multi-target situations.
    I've also had to force myself to learn to use Combust far more liberally than just @ Boss, since so much damage is loaded into it. You'll have to learn the dungeons and which trash packs to not use it on so that it's up for the boss.

  16. #1676
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by lockybalboa View Post
    So how do you do good dps on thrash with 3+targets? I play fire, and boss dps is great but i seem to be always bottom when it comes to thrash pulls.. Guide says to maintain single target dps and let ignite do the rest but the dps is really bad.. Do I spam fire blast and instantly cast pyro to boost my dps? Or would it be better to do the usual fire then pyro rotation?
    keep in mind you also have stuff like phoenix flame to help out with getting hot streaks and then just use flamestrike as much as possible, personally i use fireblast and phoenix flame and to reliably proc hot streaks for flamestrike and ofc keep living bomb up but you also need to realize that fire aoe isnt insane and if you want to do insane aoe then you need to pop combust and rune to compete with the likes of demonhunters.

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    Quote Originally Posted by nickseng View Post
    Correct, except that you're gonna be proccing more HS with Pyroblast and hence, adding more Pyro and Ignite damage to the mobs.

    So yeah, if you're standing there letting the ignite run it's course, FS does more damage.
    that just reinforces my statements from early, for aoe burst go FS spammage, for maintained aoe go pyroblast spammage(getting 1 big ignite on a target and have it spread around) which again depends on how long the mobs live.

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