739iLvl Raid - Why are we not 1Doomfire-ing Phase 1? [Mythic Archimonde]

[Jondar]

If they want to push boss before 2nd doomfire those warrior should definitely not go arms. Fury is a much better choice as the single target damage on archimonde is greater. As long as the tanks dont suck and ppl switch to deathcallers it's the way to go.

Your warriors should play Arms for Archimonde and also warrs don't have that big burst that is needed at the start.

Also cast timewarp at the pull and delay ring to hit only Archi. That's how we do it with 4 healers setup

Uh oh, conflicting suggestions!

Do you have any logs to compare the two? It's hard to look on warcraftlogs and sift through the cheesed/parse oriented logs these days

[Tradu]

Uh oh, conflicting suggestions!

Do you have any logs to compare the two? It's hard to look on warcraftlogs and sift through the cheesed/parse oriented logs these days

There's not really any conflict, it just depends what you need from your warriors. P1 push contribution? Fury. Anything else? Arms. But even Fury doesn't have great burst for P1, there's other classes that should be carrying that part of the fight.

[barackohmama]

Uh oh, conflicting suggestions!

Do you have any logs to compare the two? It's hard to look on warcraftlogs and sift through the cheesed/parse oriented logs these days

I just took top dps from warcraft logs:

https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports...et=114&phase=1

vs

https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports...e=1&target=238

Difference is almost 3m boss damage just for p1. Sure arms might do more damage overall, and even archi damage with good rng and executes, but for p1 it sucks.

But as ppl already pointed out, you want arcane mages / sub rogues(with soul cap) for good burst. If your both mages learned to play arcane p1 would be so much smoother for you guys.

[neck deep]

getting a single doomfire phase 1 without a single soulcap to do most of the doomfire damage for you is really unlikely. at least one warrior should be arms to capitalize on doomfire and deathcaller cleave. two arms warriors just cannibalize each other so having both go arms is kind of a waste. also, unless your arms warrior gets a massive doomfire execute crit, don't expect much in the way of boss damage from him, either. i would certainly replace a warrior rather than a hunter with the feral druid too, if you're struggling on single target burst to progress later in to the fight. your mages need a lot of work and i'll echo the others in saying ring and lust directly on pull and the ring will explode between doomfire death, and deathcaller spawn. if your first doomfire isn't dead by the time the ring will have exploded, you're not going to make a single doomfire phase 1 and can just wipe to save time.

[Marrilaife]

Basically:

1) 3 Warriors...
2) No Rogues
3) Retlol

You go with what you have if you're still progressing, seriously you people believe a guild that is still not 13/13 has a luxury to pick a comp? I had 2 guilds disband, last one "quit until legion" after 11 mythic because people lost interest. Joined 3rd guild where I finally got 13/13 mythic and our setup was kinda whatever, no rogues and 1 soul cap user (enh shaman). But yeah we had our top mage bursting 300-320k during hero. Yeah, you could go higher but I can tell you any good mage gets insta poached by server top guilds, same for rogues (my previous guild's last straw was our rogue getting poached to a 13/13m guild).

I check the log where we had warriors in, both 2 warriors were arms, higher one did 200k dps during hero, lower one 170k. They were using execute on the ball and copying it through sweeping strikes to the boss from what I see. Ball mostly dies from various cleave damage.

Also our ret pala did more burst than yours, could be attributed to late hero but he did half a million more damage in smaller timewindow (I check both logs until end of hero, which yours has 7 extra seconds at start), he had more damage from hammer of wrath mostly because he had more crit / multistrikes of it, not sure if it's luck or itemization (I don't play melee) also he used seal of righteousness not truth.

Also only 2 hunters were using the tyrant trinket, no idea if the 3rd doesn't have it but it should be worth using if he has.

We killed mythic archi 2 times now as a guild, so fairly fresh progress, both times went with 3 healers. Usually if we didn't reach p2 in time it was because of ring fuckup. We don't bother with deathcaller until phase change then we nuke him after boss reaches 70%. I guess the tank just needs a cd to tank him longer.

But yeah, your mages need to step up the game and carry otherwise it's gonna be hard.

[Deleted]

If they want to push boss before 2nd doomfire those warrior should definitely not go arms. Fury is a much better choice as the single target damage on archimonde is greater. As long as the tanks dont suck and ppl switch to deathcallers it's the way to go. Well arms could be good if they snap doomfires properly with execute, but 3 arms warriors doing that wont just work. I'd say go with 2 fury and 1 arms. The arms warrior can try to get executes on doomfire during ring, the other warriors just fury tunnel boss with class trinkets. It's gonna help in p2 aswell to push p3 faster.

I'm doing better as arms. On the first deathcaller I have constant MS resets from double rend. Tryed fury but didn't really work that better.

Anyways 3 warriors isn't really great for the burst phase

[Gaidax]

Just do 2 doomfires and that's it, your composition has snowball's chance in hell of having stable 1 Doomfire. It's not like 2 Doomfires are the end of the world, it's easy enough and you will save Bloodlust for P3, there is a tough bit at first 4 Infernals spawn when just about every bloody mechanic converges on your collective ass at the same time.

[AgilityTank]

3 heal, put the ring into just the boss, actually lust instantly on pull, teach a few of your dmg dealers how to play the accounts it looks like they bought

[barackohmama]

I'm doing better as arms. On the first deathcaller I have constant MS resets from double rend. Tryed fury but didn't really work that better.

Anyways 3 warriors isn't really great for the burst phase

Well its true that the deathcaller helps arms a bit on boss damage. But there's only one deathcaller between doomfire 1 and 2 so it's not boosting significantly. Fury is just better for boss burst in p1. For those guilds who easily push before 2nd doomfire arms is probably better too. But if the guild is on the limit of making it I would go fury.

[Bigbazz]

3 Warriors is not good for that kind of thing, it's doable but it's not good. Warriors are not good in general for speed killing stuff because they don't have any single target unless they are pressing execute, and they want the ring for execute or they are gimped, and they won't always have the ring for execute. I didn't look at your logs, but it's safe to say if you replaced a Warrior with a rogue or a mage you'd be in better shape.

Well its true that the deathcaller helps arms a bit on boss damage. But there's only one deathcaller between doomfire 1 and 2 so it's not boosting significantly. Fury is just better for boss burst in p1. For those guilds who easily push before 2nd doomfire arms is probably better too. But if the guild is on the limit of making it I would go fury.

It's not better on single target pull burst if you run Bladestorm, and Fury Warriors tend to run Bladestorm on Archimonde for dealing with adds, I'm assuming (possibly incorrectly?) that their Warriors are too. Arms is just better on Archimonde anyway, the fight has many opportunities to cleave and the final phase has a fairly long execute phase, making it ideal for Arms.

[dethkrik]

As others have suggested, the ring needs to hit just Archimonde. We're working on him also, and our collective item level is ~735. We can beat Shadowfel Burst about 1/2 the time, let alone the 2nd Doomfire. We trigger the ring pretty much on the pull, and it explodes after the Doomfire Spirit dies and right before the Deathcaller spawns, so that the entire thing hits Archi. We also have our Disc do the first set of Doomfires so that even our tanks can focus on DPS, and also because we're leaving the Deathcaller up until we push Phase 2. As long as your Death Branded tank gets the Light of the Naaru he should be fine. Just have CD's ready as you transition into Phase 2, as LotN drops off immediately. After this point we have a Hunter do Doomfire, and we quickly kill the Deathcaller.

[Adramelch]

Basically:

1) 3 Warriors...
2) No Rogues
3) Retlol

oh and Hero/Bloodlust is way to late.

Ret has proper burst though. Not arcane/sub levels of burst, but he can hold his own on that part of the fight. It's obviously kinda meh throughout though.

[Octa]

Your warriors should play Arms for Archimonde and also warrs don't have that big burst that is needed at the start.

Also cast timewarp at the pull and delay ring to hit only Archi. That's how we do it with 4 healers setup

Delay the ring? Why not just use it on pull while every trinket is up full duration and still only have it hit arch? if you use it directly on pull it explodes before the deathcaller spawns.

[Wilderness]

Its already been mentioned a few times, but both of your mages have a lot of room for improvement. Frost is a fine spec on the fight as a whole, but its never going to come close to Arcane on the pull and if you're going for 1 doomfire that's by far the best choice - particularly since you don't have a great comp for 1 doomfire as it is.

There's 0 reason to 4 heal when trying for 1 doomfire either. We 4 healed our first kill, with 3 doomfires. You should drop 2 healers, and all your healers should be pre-potting and putting out as much damage as they can. There's practically no healing to do until desecrate starts anyway.

To be honest, I don't get the insistence that I've seen a lot recently with guilds working on progression pushing for 1 doomfire. Its going to mean more P3 wipes, and hero is really useful when you get the dance/infernals/stars in quick succession. We still save hero for that, and we've killed it 13 times now. 1 doomfire is certainly a viable strat, but I wouldn't say its necessarily the best choice for progression.

- - - Updated - - -

Delay the ring? Why not just use it on pull while every trinket is up full duration and still only have it hit arch? if you use it directly on pull it explodes before the deathcaller spawns.

Yeah, there's no need to delay the ring. If its used right on pull it will hit before the deathcaller spawns, and the doomfire should be dead by then.

[Deleted]

Call me an asshole but with this performance some guys should focus on learning their class/specc instead of learning Archi.

[Arrow91]

Drop a dk and a warrior. Have at least one warrior as arms, sweeping strikes execute off the first doomfire is win (and throughout the encounter). Pick up someone with a soul cap.

[friedmudkipz]

If they want to push boss before 2nd doomfire those warrior should definitely not go arms. Fury is a much better choice as the single target damage on archimonde is greater. As long as the tanks dont suck and ppl switch to deathcallers it's the way to go. Well arms could be good if they snap doomfires properly with execute, but 3 arms warriors doing that wont just work. I'd say go with 2 fury and 1 arms. The arms warrior can try to get executes on doomfire during ring, the other warriors just fury tunnel boss with class trinkets. It's gonna help in p2 aswell to push p3 faster.

I mean, arms will do significantly better ST if they can get any cleaving executes off of the deathcaller. Fury is also useless in p2 and p3 while arms is pretty great for dealing with adds and p3 boss damage.

[chooi]

Call me an asshole but with this performance some guys should focus on learning their class/specc instead of learning Archi.

Stating the hard truth doesn't make you an asshole by default

[Sangomah]

Stating the hard truth doesn't make you an asshole by default

isnt this the League of Legends sub reddit!?

[Deja Thoris]

Stating the hard truth doesn't make you an asshole by default

Stating it like an asshole does. People getting to the boss now are still just outside of the top 1k guilds so they are far better than average players, they just haven't needed to min-max to the extend that the higher tier guilds do because the gear carries them somewhat. So now that they find they're in a position where every fraction of a second counts to help make a dps check its a different mindset.

Also, guilds like his (and mine) simply don't have the luxury to "drop a warrior and bring someone with soulcap" We make do with what we have. It's the reality for guilds at that level.