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  1. #41
    Quote Originally Posted by Oktoberfest View Post
    So around 20-21 weeks then.

    What if say a 19 week old baby can feel fear and pain? Does that matter to you?
    Nope.


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  2. #42
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Oktoberfest View Post
    So around 20-21 weeks then.

    What if say a 19 week old baby can feel fear and pain? Does that matter to you?
    If they could feel and fear pain, perhaps there would be some way to anaesthetize or incapacitate.

  3. #43
    Nobody likes abortion, nobody with any sense thinks it's not a big deal. What do you propose who do, make it illegal? That worked out great in the past. Abortion is legal in the way it is because it has to be legal, it has to be controlled and done in a safe environment. It doesn't matter whether you think it's wrong, you don't get to decide what others do with their body.

    I'll just leave this here.

    Quote Originally Posted by Swizzle
    just because the voices in your head tell you things, doesn't mean the world gives a crap.
    Quote Originally Posted by StarbuyPWNDyou
    Isn't it great how this thread has dematerialized from the unfair corruption of Ner'zuhl, to whether Kil'Jaeden is a draenei or an Eredar, then to Alien Genetics and now to demon sex...

  4. #44
    Deleted
    This is just yet another typical American thing. Discussion can go on forever. Smart people write papers on the topic and have debates about it. Everybody tries to convince others, very few succeed in it.

    It's endless, pointless and the simplistic form of the discussion (examplified by the use of 'graphical' animations to change people's views) is just absolutely typical.

    I find it amazing and ridiculous that people can get so upset about something so simple, all a side effect of the framework of morality that people hang on to on more than they can simply accept practical and natural world they live in.

  5. #45
    Quote Originally Posted by Delekii View Post
    I responded in kind to the post quoted, which offered equally brilliant points.

    I don't need to disprove that which isn't proven in the first place. Currently, the mother does not have the responsibility to carry a fetus to term. Saying "it comes with responsibilities" is not currently the case.
    Coming from the implicit point that power over anything brings certain responsibilities, the power to bring new life into the world carries with it the responsibility over such life.

    Our laws over the duty of our minors are a reflection of that premise.

    Meanwhile, pro-abortion "radical freedom" nutcases assume sex and pregnancy are things within an abstract concept where actions do not have consequences and where women are to be liberated from the logical implications of their actions, life of another human being be damned.

    And then people wonder if it's a religious debate or not. It really isn't.

  6. #46
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Cradyz View Post
    Nobody likes abortion, nobody with any sense thinks it's not a big deal.
    Speak for yourself. It's just as big a deal as deciding not to have sex or using a condom. The end result is the same: no baby, no human is born. Why should you care whether "no baby" is the result of no sex or an abortion (assuming the sexual intercourse would have led to impregnation)? Do you feel bad for all those potential humans that weren't created because people used protection? Why not?
    Last edited by mmocbc5645dc6c; 2016-02-25 at 10:40 AM.

  7. #47
    The Insane Revi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Oktoberfest View Post
    So around 20-21 weeks then.

    What if say a 19 week old baby can feel fear and pain? Does that matter to you?
    If they could feel and be aware of it in a meaningful way, yes it would.

    Just having a nervous system isn't saying much. If it did, I couldn't even kill the maggot I use to catch the fish that I also couldn't kill.

  8. #48
    Quote Originally Posted by Templar 331 View Post
    To guilt trip people into thinking that all abortions=mid to late term abortions.
    It's not working...

  9. #49
    Quote Originally Posted by Revi View Post
    If they could feel and be aware of it in a meaningful way, yes it would.
    Oh they are aware of it. Especially when their first leg is torn off his or hers body

  10. #50
    The Insane Revi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Oktoberfest View Post
    Oh they are aware of it. Especially when their first leg is torn off his or hers body
    In what way? Do you have a source explaining that?

  11. #51
    Quote Originally Posted by bewbew View Post
    Coming from the implicit point that power over anything brings certain responsibilities, the power to bring new life into the world carries with it the responsibility over such life.

    Our laws over the duty of our minors are a reflection of that premise.

    Meanwhile, pro-abortion "radical freedom" nutcases assume sex and pregnancy are things within an abstract concept where actions do not have consequences and where women are to be liberated from the logical implications of their actions, life of another human being be damned.

    And then people wonder if it's a religious debate or not. It really isn't.
    Subjective opinions, all not represented in current laws and based on the assumption that a fetus is a being with rights.

    Sorry, it doesn't matter how emotive you get. A fetus does not have rights. In a world where abortion is possible, women don't need to be liberated from, as you say, the "logical implications of their actions". This is another argument that is birthed (lol) from the point of view that abortion is inherently a bad thing.

    Until such a point that you are able to divorce your arguments from your point of view of a fetus as a baby, no argument you make holds any merit until fetuses gain rights at a societal level.

    There are, of course, downsides to abortion; they are potentially dangerous to the mother and not cheap, and thus should be avoided where possible, but not from the point of view of "protecting a life".

  12. #52
    Quote Originally Posted by Oktoberfest View Post
    Oh they are aware of it. Especially when their first leg is torn off his or hers body
    The fetus is not aware during an abortion unless a doctor didn't do their job.

  13. #53
    always wondered how that worked. first trimester are fine, 2nd is kinda iffy but its up to the woman. video cant guilt trip me.

  14. #54
    What a facsinating video

    What do you want, oktoberfest? A ban on abortion because 2nd trimester abortions look yucky? Are we going to bad everything that's yucky, such as making sausages because it just doesn't look pretty, or gutting/skinning dead animals? Oh, wait, it's because it's a 'human' it's wrong, isn't it? Also it's not a baby, it's a feutus.

    It might make you happy to know that some countries are changing abortion laws to correspond to medical advancement. It was recently made illegal in Norway to have an abortion after 22nd week because fetal viability increases after the 23rd week. Between the 12th and 22nd week you also need to have your abortion approved by a medical board... which is funny since first ordinary ultrasound (unless you pay for an early one yourself and it's expensive) is at 17th/18th weeks, sometimes as late as 20th which sucks in case of Down's syndrome or what have you

    Maybe it'll also make you happy to know that women on women's forums are encourging others to not have an abortion? No one says "abort that little shit, sister" but actually telling her to keep it. They sound pretty anti-abortion

    An abortion ban won't work either, just look at South America.

    To abort or not is a woman's decision to make, not yours. Her health and body >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> your feelings on 'babies'.

  15. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by runique View Post
    I mean like I'm pro-choice at least in early pregnancy, but the way you responded just doesn't come off as discussion. "errmagerd every baby that you don't let be aborted cuz u think its wrong turns into a poor degenerate that doesn't have parents" isn't really a point you can discuss. Also, just to entertain you, some of unwanted pregnancies turn out that way. There are also a lot of other reasons to abort unwanted pregnancy.
    It is a discussion. It may come across as a very uncomfortable discussion facing the cruel edgy reality of this world, but it is still a discussion at its core. Ofcourse that isnt the only point of it. My main point is woman's freedom to choose wether he wants to give birth or not and freedom to choose wether he wants to love that child or not. You cant force a mother to love a child she doesnt want. Love works best when it's mutual. When it's one sided or forced it's nothing more than manipulation of someone else's unconsenting body and soul.

    The only thing I don't understand is why pro life vs pro choice is a religious vs secular debate. The Bible doesn't state when a fetus/baby becomes aware/ a human being. It's a grey area that goes beyond science and religion. I mean nobody can prove when life begins. I think a lot of people don't actually form opinions on their own about abortion, but just feel one way or another because they either are or aren't religious.
    You contradict yourself. In first sentence you go about why is it about religion only to start off with the word "Bible" in the second one.

  16. #56
    The Insane Masark's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Oktoberfest View Post
    You mean like this? Born at only 21 weeks.
    And? The odds of survival at 22 weeks are less than the odds of you surviving being shot in the head.
    Last edited by Masark; 2016-02-25 at 01:36 PM.

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  17. #57
    The Insane apepi's Avatar
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    Honestly I would be a lot more Anti-Abortion if the people who actually don't want abortions helped those who choose not to do it and help the child, find them a nice family and made sure that kid got a good education, but that will simply just not happen.
    Time...line? Time isn't made out of lines. It is made out of circles. That is why clocks are round. ~ Caboose

  18. #58
    I wonder if people realize that if a pregnancy gets to such a late term before being aborted...there's usually a pretty damned good reason for it. Like, serious medical complications. But of course, that's not going to get in the way of propaganda and bullshit. So carry on.

  19. #59
    I don't care. Appendages are human, but nobody bats an eye if we remove them. The ability to be conscious of themselves is all that matters, and fetuses most definitely do not know they exist.
    Calling an appendage a "human" is the most intelectually dishonest shit I've ever read on the internet.

    Congratulations.

  20. #60
    Herald of the Titans theredviola's Avatar
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    I'll talk slow so the ignorant can understand something:

    We don't "support abortion."

    We "support a women's right to choose."

    If you can't understand the difference between those statements, then you have no business trying to have a conversation with adults.
    "Do not only practice your art, but force yourself into its secrets, for it and knowledge can raise men to the divine." -- Ludwig Van Beethoven

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