World First Arisen Arak Kill

[justinhalfout]

My old man once told me "no matter how good you are at something there will always be someone around the corner doing it better so you must always do your best"

You really don't need complicated maths and statistics to reach the conclusion that,if the above holds true,with the size of the population in WoW there are many more people playing much better who are spread out among more guilds with the very best of players consolidated in many more than just the two or three guilds as is the case with Rift.

[Ahovv]

My old man once told me "no matter how good you are at something there will always be someone around the corner doing it better so you must always do your best"

You really don't need complicated maths and statistics to reach the conclusion that,if the above holds true,with the size of the population in WoW there are many more people playing much better who are spread out among more guilds with the very best of players consolidated in many more than just the two or three guilds as is the case with Rift.

That's completely missing the point. Nobody at all is arguing that WoW doesn't have a much larger player base, and as a result many more good players. It also likely has an equal proportion of horrible players in the bottom 99%, which would increase at a similar rate.

The people trying to make the connection that "good in Rift means probably average in WoW" are really idiotic. Should I link the countless orange-bracket parses I've gotten in WoW? I mean sure, it's anecdotal, but at this point I think fallacies are the only way to battle fallacies.

My original point was exactly that not everyone transitions games very well. This is ok. Nobody is claiming that a good player will always be a good player regardless of game. But to assume the opposite is simply not based in reality.

[BiggestNoob]

There is indeed a very massive difference between world 1 and world 50 in WoW and anyone who claims otherwise is most certainly delusional. And this "top rift guild" can only manage to get to 5/13 M with nerfed content & inflated gear levels via valor upgrades. They are certainly progressing faster than most "newly formed" guilds in WoW would due to their RIFT experience...but they still aren't above average yet. I barely post on MMO champion so I probably won't reply again. Just letting you know the cold, hard truth.

Yeah, if by "massive difference" you mean "massive difference in time investment."

What do you think the competition would actually look like if the top 100 guilds skill wise put in 80+ hours a week during progression? Do you think Limit would be in the top 20? I'm not convinced, because half of your roster isn't amazing.

Don't be one of those people who equates massive time investments with capability. If you let me pick 20 people from any guild rank 50 to 150 and I could have them raid for 100 hours a week during progression in Legion, I'm quite certain that guild would easily take rank 3 and would likely take 1 or 2. There is no guild in WoW that has an irreplaceable roster (or even close to one), and time investment is currently a massive differentiating factor in guild performance.

It's easy to talk big when you're comparing apples and oranges.

I don't play WoW. Haven't played seriously since WotLK.

So, yeah, I'm not a good judge of what's good or not, but based on my experience (when I was raid-leading in BC and WotLK), I assume (possibly incorrectly) that 5/12 in a month is above average. Not sure how quick top dedicated guilds progress.

Also, wouldn't be able to give any opinion on DPS as I have not raided / done dungeons in WoW in ages.

I don't like stating an opinion unless I back it up with experience - and in this case, I concede that it is limited, so in all likelyhood, if you have more experience, then my opinion is tainted.

5/13 in a month at 715+ ilvl is really slow. If they went in at the intended ilvls at 705-710 without rings and pushed over the first 5 bosses in a raid night or two, that'd have been on par with what the top guilds were able to do. The best guilds killed Gorefiend in under 100 pulls with ~712-714 ilvl. Apoth is already at 54 with a raid ilvl of 724 with rings (Archimonde died at 719 with no rings).

That's not even remotely what I said.

What you claimed implied that. To say that the best players in Rift are only average in WoW implies that Rift players are terrible. That's because statistically speaking, the top percentile of players in Rift will be among the top percentile of players in WoW if other factors don't come into play. One factor could be that people have long since stopped putting in any effort and have just been playing Rift on muscle memory (due to lack of competition or something) and they haven't bothered to actually learned how to play their own specs in WoW, or the more obvious one (and the one you more than implied multiple times in this thread) that Rift is easy and WoW is hard, which is laughable.

So either I'm right and the smaller competitive pool allowed for a guild to be on top that perhaps wasn't world first caliber in a larger pool like WoW, or Rift players are somehow inherently worse than WoW player by some kind of voodoo, or WoW is just "harder to play" and Rift is easy. There aren't too many other options to explain why the "Paragon" of Rift is actually only "above average" in WoW.

Well you have two examples contradicting your claim in this very thread. I know of at least a handful more, and that's just players I knew personally to be good in Rift who are still actively playing WoW. Quite a few of the guys I played WildStar with who came over to WoW are in top guilds as well. Most of those people aren't playing WoW, but I can say that the best groups I've seen in Rift, if they put the same effort into WoW, would've very easily been world top 10 guilds.

The math disagrees with you. You have contradictions to your claim. And we all know Rift wasn't a "group of friends." It was thousands of raiders and tens to hundreds of thousands of players. Tens of thousands of raiders before people got bored with it (but unfortunately before raiding actually got competitive, or perhaps that's what caused it). So you can keep thinking that "good players in Rift are mediocre in WoW" aka "Rift players suck" since you appear uninterested in reality.

My old man once told me "no matter how good you are at something there will always be someone around the corner doing it better so you must always do your best"

You really don't need complicated maths and statistics to reach the conclusion that,if the above holds true,with the size of the population in WoW there are many more people playing much better who are spread out among more guilds with the very best of players consolidated in many more than just the two or three guilds as is the case with Rift.

There were only a handful of guilds in Rift for the longest time going in on day 1 as soon as the servers came up and clearing all the easy bosses, then clearing content weeks/months ahead of average guilds. It was fairly easy to attract the best players or convince them to play with us instead of their friends. There are quite a few more options in WoW, and nobody really cares outside of who takes 1-3, and maybe regionals. You have the Limit guy up there desperately trying to claim he's really good because he's in a guild that managed 7th made from the ashes of BL. Most people are uninterested in 5-6x split clearing or day raiding, because why. At best I think we did 30ish hour weeks, with 10-12 hour first days and normal schedules after that, and most people can manage to take off 1 day every few months.

[Ahovv]

Contradicting? I'm going by your own example of the "world first" Rift guild only being "above average" in WoW. That's not contradicting at all.

And why are you still so hung up on this game vs. game "who are the better players" nonsense? This is why you can't just discuss it, you're still so defensive for some reason, no one said anything about players in one game being better than in the other game, in fact the average players are probably all the same overall. But the larger - and perceived "more competitive" - game will simply have a larger pool of highly competitive people driving that progress and competition at the top. If anyone is in denial of reality, it would be the person denying this concept.

Also, you're wielding about "the math" clumsily like a hammer, trying to drive in screws with it because hammers are all you're willing to look at. Like I said many times, there are more factors in play than the zero-context, basic statistics that you're stumbling around with.

That is anecdotal evidence, as in, an outlier until proven otherwise. You cannot possibly use that and say, "Well, good enough for me! Looks like stellar people in one game are average in WoW." I could list several prominent examples of former top-50 wow raiders performing like shit in Rift and quitting when they realized devs weren't going to nerf content at their whim. But that doesn't prove a contradiction.

[BiggestNoob]

Contradicting? I'm going by your own example of the "world first" Rift guild only being "above average" in WoW. That's not contradicting at all.

That's not my example. Let's look at what you actually said:

I doubt they're doing sub 50% of optimal DPS in WoW, you can do that just by auto attacking with some specs. :| (Some of what you're saying comes off very strongly as having some kind of vendetta against this guild.)

Edit: But yes, it's still mostly an issue of population. The best players in a small population are almost certainly going to be behind the best players of a vastly larger population.

I said they're playing terribly, but these same people weren't always good at Rift, they eventually became good at Rift and were never really comparable to the best Rift guilds. Most of the best EU players I knew went on to play other games (and many of those people were top players as expected). The same is true of NA players.

You made the claim that the best players (some group, let's say the top 1%) in a smaller group are "almost certainly going to be behind the best players of a vastly larger population." That's not how statistics works.

And why are you still so hung up on this game vs. game "who are the better players" nonsense? This is why you can't just discuss it, you're still so defensive for some reason, no one said anything about players in one game being better than in the other game, in fact the average players are probably all the same overall. But the larger - and perceived "more competitive" - game will simply have a larger pool of highly competitive people driving that progress and competition at the top. If anyone is in denial of reality, it would be the person denying this concept.

Because your claims necessarily imply that Rift players are worse than WoW players, which is absurd. Try queuing up for LFR. And you do it yet again in this same post.

If you have a game with 10000 people, the top 1% contains 100 people, while the bottom 99% contains 9900 people. If you have a game with 1000000 people, the top 1% contains 10000 people while the bottom 99% contains 990000. 100/10000 = 9900/990000. The two groups are proportional. You have more 1% players in the larger population, but the 1% players (100 of them) would be among the top 10000 people in the larger population.

Rift had maybe 5-10 guilds that would kill bosses in a reasonable time frame in most cases, upwards of 50 during T1-T3. There are only about 200-300 in WoW. So a difference of 20-30x, which is the population difference.

The competitive pool is larger, and so you have more guilds clearing mythic before nerfs (as is completely expected), but you also have a ton more guilds not doing that. But none of that means that the best players in Rift would somehow be behind the best players in WoW.

Think of it like this. If you had a game with 10000 players, and 990000 new players joined that game, where would the top 100 players go? Are you suddenly going to have 10000 people better than all of those 100?

If you still can't get it, I'll make another simulation taking those top 1% of the smaller population, adding 990k more players and listing their rankings in the new population. You'll call "bullshit" I'm sure when it turns out they're virtually all in the 1% of the larger population (as is predicted by this incredibly boring and trivial statistics discussion which you don't seem to understand at all).

Also, you're wielding about "the math" clumsily like a hammer, trying to drive in screws with it because hammers are all you're willing to look at. Like I said many times, there are more factors in play than the zero-context, basic statistics that you're stumbling around with.

When you get a M.S. in math, you'll be welcome to critique my use of freshman level statistics in this case.

If you want to consider a more complex model, feel free to prove that Rift is easier than WoW or that the mechanics aren't similar enough to warrant this comparison. Just an FYI: I've played at least a dozen MMOs and it's always the exact same. I guarantee you I'll be one of the top players in whatever spec, whatever class, regardless of the MMO because they're all the same. Different ability names, different cast times, different GCDs, same exact process of learning how to play and min/maxing. Some have more buttons, some have less, some play faster, some play slower, but they're all the same game, and it's incredibly easy to hit the skill ceiling in them all.

For instance, in WildStar I wrote a basic simulator for my class. It determined expected DPS for a given set of gear/spec and let us quickly determine the ideal build. It also let us determine what would be the best when we obtained more gear and AMP/Ability Points. It turns out that even though I don't play the game anymore (haven't for a while) that the top players are doing exactly what the sim predicted they'd do. If it's so predictable that I can write a tool that will tell you the ideal order of abilities to use and your expected DPS, even after future gear progression, then anyone can memorize how to do a perfect DPS rotation, and the major difference between good players is positioning/uptime and planning your movement/CDs in a fight. Please explain to me how these concepts are different between Rift/WoW.

Sure, but we don't really have anything BUT anecdotes to go off of. It's not like we'll have some exhaustive study that covers all the different factors on this topic.

Besides, it's not like I'm basing my entire stance off of that one guild. What I said holds true in pretty much any competitive field, not just Rift and WoW.

No it doesn't. That's what statistics is. What you claim does not hold true in even basic statistical models in competitive anything. Look at sports as a fine example. The outcomes of the Olympics (individuals in smaller groups competing with the best individuals from other smaller groups, ie the best from the sum of all groups competing for gold) and international sports is incredibly contradictory to everything you've claimed in this thread, but completely consistent with statistics. How can that possibly be?

We don't need an exhaustive study of MMOs. We're smart enough to notice that Rift and WoW are basically identical games with different boss encounters and spell names. We have exhaustive data in sports and the statistics works there. Somehow, you're claiming, that it's not relevant in this case which is the exact same as that case. Sports can even vary in rulesets from region to region and nation to nation, yet international competitions (with standardized rules) show that those minor differences don't impact the expected results. WoW and Rift are not so different or dramatically incomparable. You keep insisting that they are, so please prove it. Hell, find me a single person who's actually cleared the content in both who agrees with your claim. Just one person.

[Ahovv]

Also, the Olympics and other competitive sports absolutely do not disagree with me. Especially the Olympics, where you have people from all over the world competing (ie, large competitive pool), you have the best competitors flocking to the perceived most competitive scene (the Olympics), and that greater competition breeds increased performance from the involved competitors

*Compares the top ~0.0001% representing the olympics to a top 1% premise in an attempt to debunk it*

Seriously, you still don't see how your examples are bullshit? Either you are delusional to the point that these attempts at explaining differences are futile, or you are trolling.

[BiggestNoob]

First off, like I said, you're wielding the math around like a hammer pretending like everything is a nail. I'm glad you have a degree in math, but it's clouding your view of all the related factors here. That and your continued insistence to create some kind of "Game vs. Game" argument.

This situation is a classic statistical scenario, it is applicable, and you're the one confounding things by arguing that games are not alike, essentially throwing logic and reason away because you're wrong and have no idea what you're talking about.

You sound like a flat Earther claiming physicists are just "using math" to solve problems because that's their hammer. I'm still waiting for that flat Earth rocket to land on an extra-terrestrial body tho. Let me know when your buddies figure out how to make things work without gravity or relativity.

Also, the Olympics and other competitive sports absolutely do not disagree with me. Especially the Olympics, where you have people from all over the world competing (ie, large competitive pool), you have the best competitors flocking to the perceived most competitive scene (the Olympics), and that greater competition breeds increased performance from the involved competitors. (Which is a factor that pretty much everyone ever involved in highly competitive activities will tell you)

Yes, they do disagree with you. Those people are the top in their countries going on to be the top in the world (as in, from 300 million country to 7 billion available competitors, and still in the top tiny percentile of people). You're never going to understand basic math. Ever. The people at the olympics are the top tiny percentile of their representative countries. They represent an entire country, like the top 1% from Rift and top 1% from WoW represent their entire playerbase.

Clearly the fact that olympians are among the best athletes in their home countries has no correlation at all with their performance among the best athletes from all the countries in the world. That's literally what you've claimed in this thread. By your reasoning, the US shouldn't really be able to compete at all with China or India because we have a huge population difference, but hey buddy, go watch the Olympics sometime. Just give it a go. See how your assumptions hold up.

Everything that I've said over and over is reflected right there. Yet all you can talk about is "WoW vs. Rift" and freshman statistics.

Stop claiming Rift is easier than WoW and Rift players are worse than WoW players. Stop claiming that American olympic athletes are worse than global olympic athletes. Stop failing to understand math that my little sister understood when she was like 11. It's embarrassing.

Again, I never said that. You keep harping on this "Game vs. Game" nonsense and strawmanning the hell out of me by claiming that I've said it many times.

It's not a strawman because it's literally your argument.

[xuros]

This is incorrect. Excessive macro capability has not been available in Rift for years now.

I used them since the get go.

[justinhalfout]

I used them since the get go.

Pretty much,sure they changed a few things but some specs can still be played with one button (saboteur as an example anyone?) and since you can throw multiple abilities with cooldowns in a macro it will just cycle through until x ability is available,but like I said before you're not going to be playing optimally that way (for example putting serpent strike in a sin macro or calculated shot in a mm macro).

[Volitar]

They are not doing well in wow. Look at their item level at the time of their kills; getting 5/13 is a complete joke with 720ilvl. Additionally, examine their dps rankings and you see they have a ton of mediocre parsers at the moment.

Unfortunately not everyone can make a game transition and play at the same level. I saw this when I first hopped over to WoW with many of my friends from Vendetta/Crayons/Rekt. Most of the Crayons people were top parsers in Rift and became average in WoW for whatever reason.

Of course, this is totally unrelated to the thread! Congrats FoH on a world first for Arisen Arak. If it's like most other end bosses in Rift, I'm sure there were (are?) many annoying fucking bugs.

Everyones ranks are going to be shit on progression kills like what 8-9 months into a tier. There are guilds killing bosses in under 30 seconds with 0 healers.

How can you hope to compete with people having 100% uptime on potion, ring, bloodlust, and cds? not to metion kills tailored to specif people ranking (this week only jimmy is aoe the hands so he can get that juicy parse guys!).

[Shibito]

Ill be damned people still raid in this game.

[Ahovv]

Everyones ranks are going to be shit on progression kills like what 8-9 months into a tier. There are guilds killing bosses in under 30 seconds with 0 healers.

How can you hope to compete with people having 100% uptime on potion, ring, bloodlust, and cds? not to metion kills tailored to specif people ranking (this week only jimmy is aoe the hands so he can get that juicy parse guys!).

What the fuck does that have to do with other guilds at their ilvl?

Anyway, I'm bored with this conversation. Especially with things being taken out of context and other ridiculous game vs game comparisons.

[BiggestNoob]

So...what's your explanation, then? You've let us all know how brilliant you are, so I'm sure that - after rejecting all other ideas out of hand - you have your own?

Learn all of the stuff on this website: http://www.purplemath.com/

Once you've done that, let me know, and I'll find you some nice free materials on statistics and probability theory.

[BiggestNoob]

So in other words...you have no idea. You reject the only reason that every other competitive player on the planet would point to, but you still have no idea of your own.

That's all I wanted to know, thanks!

I'm trying to teach you so that you can actually understand what I've already told you, which completely explains what I've said. You've ignored those things because you don't understand them. You're not willing to learn, so at this point we can all be confident that you're not interested in debate or discussion but rather just pushing your perspective, even after it's been demolished by basic math.

[Awol]

t's not an issue of population. The top 5 people in a population of 10000 are not suddenly going to be median in a population of 100000. That's not how statistics works. You're asserting that people who play Rift are generally much worse than people who play WoW when you say that. I've watched great players transition between similar games with varying population sizes and they are consistently at the top. I'm near the top and I only started playing WoW when HFC came out, but the whole time I've been playing, 90% parses have been common while being so far behind people who are optimally geared for that ilvl. Even on a fresh alt that I had no idea how to play I'm sitting here at 98%+ parses in my bracket without tier or trinkets, and it's very simple to do that, so when I see people doing significantly less DPS than I am with no gear, they don't really engender much respect.

This is a guild filled with people who constantly boasted about being better than everyone else in Rift, in fact mocking the performance of others, yet they're playing at such a poor level they'd be world 300 at best in WoW. And by their own admission, the specs are easier to play in WoW. So yeah, I'm going to be critical of their performance. You can't talk shit like that and then play this poorly and think that nobody is going to point out the irony of it.

[Bigbazz]

Top 300 in wow is pretty good, you have some crazy good players at that level where much of the difference separating guilds is preparation and time investment etc. I think to start playing WoW from scratch and be 5/13m in 2 months is pretty impressive.. If you want to talk ranks then I play in a rank 250 ish WoW guild, prior to that I was in a rank 1500 WoW guild.. I have had rank 1 parses in all 3 raids of this expansion across 3 specs but it was hard to always do well in the old guild, when I joined my current guild I was popping 99% rankings out like nobodies business, my first kill with them completely undergeared was 99% on Zakuun Mythic last year.

But rankings are not everything, they are more a product of an effort encompassing the entire raid married with RNG than they are a product of your own skill, a geared raid carries you to personal ranks, as does a tailored strategy (both of which are heavy heavy influencers affecting the rankings at this point).

Of course the rank 1 guild in Rift is unlikely to be at the level of the rank 1 guild in WoW because the level of competition and the amount of competition is much higher in WoW. But 2 months in I think you should give them some credit, it's not realistic to expect someone to switch games and instantly be on par with the best in the world, even if they put in the time and dedication.


Not sure how I ended up in a Rift thread, I haven't played it for years. Last time I logged in it was as dead as my old WoW server. Yay for 15 people online.

[Sepelio]

I mean, the sheer level of competition in WoW is quite legitimately what makes the upper tier WoW guilds a step above, and people saying top 300 is pretty good in WoW, whilst opinion are subjective, thats pretty flat out wrong - citing rank 1 parses X or Y servers no real merit as with every action in both life and games, the highest valued thing is consistency - Rank 300 guilds are not rank 300 because of a time investment, it is purely they're inferior players for whatever reason you want to attribute to it, mechanically output wise, you name it, it applies. My guild raided 16 hours a week this tier and got world 50, could we have done better with our time with better players, i have absolutely no doubt.

WoW guilds who quite literally prepare for months, raid 16 hour days for progression, who have 5 characters appropriately geared for class and spec stacking. I really enjoyed raiding in Rift, i like it alot don't get me wrong. But quite genuinely, if you've left Rift and come to WoW and are seriously wanting to be a world first guild, welcome to the big leagues, because the sheer investment that is required is something significantly beyond what you have dealt with before. And when i mean pushing for world first, i mean putting in 80 hour weeks when the expansion hits prepping/gearing toons, 80 hour weeks until progression is over. It is an absolutely absurd commitment which most people don't have the time for, and even less have the consistent level of play and mentality for