Feral PvP (Legion) OUCH!

[Krusza]

There are issues but that doesn't make what I said wrong. The mobility is still stupid when looking at what happened to all the other melee, the way you guys talk in here is like they added a ten minute cd to shifting and removed shifting roots and slows lol. Also on defensives you realize this the exp they are removing many defensives so ideas like don't nerf me but you do buff my defensives is the opposite of what's happening this exp.

They are nerfing mobility and defensives across the board on melee agree or disagree on that choice that's still the expansion's direction. Which means feral isn't getting defensive buffs.

Turd defensives is what most melee have in legion. After they lower self healing on many dps specs that's all they will have. Which is something you need to look at in the context of the rest of the game.

DK is keeping numerous breakers, AMS, gaining a root breaker and also getting AMZ back (instead of dark sim if chosen)

Ret is keeping defensives and getting more mobility.

Warrior is getting ridiculous mobility.

Rogue will still have really good mobility.

Shamans will still have good defensives and mobility.

How are all melee going to have crap defensives and no mobility exactly? Want some examples.

[Deleted]

...They are defiantly not OP .. Its a burst centric build .. On live Berserk is what makes the 3min CD so powerful .. Berserk is on a 3min CD and lasts 15sec and reduces the cost of all cat abilities by 50% .. 15 sec .. AGAIN 15 sec ..

If you know its coming you plan for it .. Now don't expect to neutralize the feral 100% BUT if you last those 15sec the druid has nothing for another 3min ..

In any case come Legion Berserk lasts 30sec so lets see how it turns out .. though if you take those talents you do 40% less physical damage :/

Dont think you quite under the concept of your "2" burst abilitys that lasts 15 sec (Berzerk) and 30 sec (incarnation) when ppl defensive abilitys last 5-8 second on avarage. 30 sec of permanent retarded damage and infinite stuns on the whole team while beeing "immune" to slows and roots... yes.. wonder why the need a nerf.

[allergisch]

Ret keeping defensives and is getting more mobility.

What do you mean by "getting more mobility"?

[Krusza]

They're gaining abilities that give them more mobility?

- - - Updated - - -

Dont think you quite under the concept of your "2" burst abilitys that lasts 15 sec (Berzerk) and 30 sec (incarnation) when ppl defensive abilitys last 5-8 second on avarage. 30 sec of permanent retarded damage and infinite stuns on the whole team while beeing "immune" to slows and roots... yes.. wonder why the need a nerf.

Because the game is supposed to be balanced around duels, right?

No.

There's a reason why when you watch GCDTV or something a feral will pop incarn and berserk separately so they don't get CC'd for the entire duration.

[Res03]

...Feral shape-shifting has been given a CD and Blizzard seems to think it is needed because Feral can 'macro' shape shifting .. Lets see how many 'things' can be macro(d) in WoW?

The ability to get out of snares and roots quickly IS a ferals defense .. a build with low sustained and huge burst ...

Thoughts?

They did this in cata which was later on reverted. These old idiot developers need to remember stupid mistakes made in the past.

- - - Updated - - -

DK is keeping numerous breakers, AMS, gaining a root breaker and also getting AMZ back (instead of dark sim if chosen)

Ret is keeping defensives and getting more mobility.

Warrior is getting ridiculous mobility.

Rogue will still have really good mobility.

Shamans will still have good defensives and mobility.

How are all melee going to have crap defensives and no mobility exactly? Want some examples.

Lmafo Ret isn't gaining mobility, listening to this guy is lol

[Wow]

DK is keeping numerous breakers, AMS and gaining a root breaker.

Ret is keeping defensives and is getting more mobility.

Warrior is getting ridiculous mobility.

Rogue will still have really good mobility.

Shamans will still have good defensives and mobility.

How are all melee going to have crap defensives and no mobility exactly?

DK- The only breaker dk's have is the same one they've always had ibf all others are gone now and self heals gutted, yes Wraith Walk is new and it lasts 3secs and pacifies them lol.

Ret- is losing Emancipate (root and snare spam dispel), long arm or speed of light and seal of justice (passive snare on all attacks) and losing 95% of its range dmg and divine protection. Gaining a 4sec sprint on a 60sec cd and a 8sec slow on 30sec cd lol more mobility.

Warrior- charge now 20sec cd, intervene gone, double charge goes against their stuns which are there only cc now which means no one can take it. Leap talent goes against defensive talents.

Shaman- Shamrage is gone replaced by Astral Shift 1.5min cd 1 charge 40% reduction lasts 6secs not usable while stunned only defensive. Frostshock is also ele only now.

Rogues- 30sec shadowstep for assassin and sub (sub does have port on ambush but they are already talking about killing it) and 30sec Grappling Hook for outlaw. Also sub's slow is tied to a dispellable finisher and outlaw's is tied to a shit no dmg ability that costs 40 energy and only last 6secs

Overall it seems you looked nothing into classes in legion. Almost all of these changes are not recent and were there months and month ago.

[Krusza]

DK- The only breaker dk's have is the same one they've always had ibf all others are gone now and self heals gutted, yes Wraith Walk is new and it lasts 3secs and pacifies them lol.

Ret- is losing Emancipate (root and snare spam dispel), long arm or speed of light and seal of justice (passive snare on all attacks) and losing 95% of its range dmg and divine protection. Gaining a 4sec sprint on a 60sec cd and a 8sec slow on 30sec cd lol more mobility.

Warrior- charge now 20sec cd, intervene gone, double charge goes against their stuns which are there only cc now which means no one can take it. Leap talent goes against defensive talents.

Shaman- Shamrage is gone replaced by Astral Shift 1.5min cd 1 charge 40% reduction lasts 6secs not usable while stunned only defensive. Frostshock is also ele only now.

Rogues- 30sec shadowstep for assassin and sub (sub does have port on ambush but they are already talking about killing it) and 30sec Grappling Hook for outlaw. Also sub's slow is tied to a dispellable finisher and outlaw's is tied to a shit no dmg ability that costs 40 energy and only last 6secs

Overall it seems you looked nothing into classes in legion. Almost all of these changes are not recent and were there months and month ago.

On the calc it doesn't say anything about pacifying them, so if it does I didn't know. They're keeping IBF, AMS, gaining a root breaker (if it pacifies them, I can't see that anywhere) and having the option of taking AMZ. I'd say that's decent.

Rets have "hand of hindrance", a 70% 30sec cd slow that lasts 10 sec and a CD reduction on freedom. They're also getting reductions on forberance and a couple of neat defensive talents. I didn't realize the step thing was removed, but I'd say that leaves them with quite a bit. Not gaining, but definitely not "turd"

I've seen warriors run with bounding and double charge, it's absolutely retarded. They at least have the option of taking it, I don't. Also getting a slight buff to def stance and retaining wall/dbts/leap/charge (albeit with 20 sec cd). I've also seen that fury still has really good self-healing. I didn't realize intercept replaced charge (dont think it did at first) but they still have decent mobility and defensives i'd say. Definitely not "turd"

Shaman gets a movement speed totem/leap/charge in a tier. They're losing sham rage but astral shift is getting buffed with the artifact trait and is baseline. There's also the cling talent that gives a bit of movement speed. Still decent, not "turd"

Rogue is getting a reduced cooldown on sprint to 30 seconds and has a talent to provide snare immunity on it for 4 sec, step is baseline and assass keeps crippling poison, and they're keeping their defensives (outlaw gets 2 more defs)

So they might not be gaining (I hadn't checked in a while) but it's definitely not bad when you're comparing it to:

Feral - Powershifting CD (have fun getting stunned in caster form), talent to break roots on stampede roar (shares tier with a leap talent), losing shirvallah / healing in form / ysera's gift / NV / ward / leader of the pack healing (reworked as talent). Survival instincts CD is 3 minutes (up from 2, but gains a slight duration buff), losing decurse, and gaining a crappy dodge trait that is so badly designed.

[Wow]

On the calc it doesn't say anything about pacifying them, so if it does I didn't know. They're keeping IBF, AMS, gaining a root breaker (if it pacifies them, I can't see that anywhere) and having the option of taking AMZ. I'd say that's decent.

What do you think the "cannot attack" line in wraith walk it means? Ams is also on a higher cd. And no one calls live dk mobility good so them getting something new isn't that strong.

Rets have "hand of hindrance", a 70% 30sec cd slow that lasts 10 sec and a CD reduction on freedom. They're also getting reductions on forberance and a couple of neat defensive talents. I didn't realize the step thing was removed, but I'd say that leaves them with quite a bit. Not gaining, but definitely not "turd"

Snares lasts 8secs in pvp, The defensive talents are vs mobility talents, losing Emancipate is like taking shapeshifting from feral and yet you underplay it. Losing divine protection (20% dmg reduction which was useable stunned and could be had as low as a 30sec cd is huge) Just having a 5min bubble/bop which many times is just instantly dispelled is bad. Bottom line less def and mobility than live which no one even calls ret live mobility good so...

I've seen warriors run with bounding and double charge, it's absolutely retarded. They at least have the option of taking it, I don't. Also getting a slight buff to def stance and retaining wall/dbts/leap/charge (albeit with 20 sec cd). I've also seen that fury still has really good self-healing. I didn't realize intercept replaced charge (dont think it did at first) but they still have decent mobility and defensives i'd say. Definitely not "turd"

Yes warriors can spec for mobility and have nothing else at all lol. They have no wall and dbts is a talent now which goes against that leap talent and it replaces def stance lol. Dstance also lowers dmg done the same amount it lowers dmg taken lol.

But who needs multiple charges when you can shift everything( you have switch between other forms than cat vs the other melee just sit and take in roots and slows) have a 15sec gap closer passively run faster and multiple sprints all baseline.

Shaman gets a movement speed totem/leap/charge in a tier. They're losing sham rage but astral shift is getting buffed with the artifact trait and is baseline. There's also the cling talent that gives a bit of movement speed. Still decent, not "turd"

Shamrage is useable stunned is a 1 min cd and lasts 15secs Astral Shift lasts 6secs and is on longer cd and not usable while stunned this is a massive downgrade. The trait is healing which is something they are toning down on dps specs that are strong which enh is very.

Rogue is getting a reduced cooldown on sprint to 30 seconds and has a talent to provide snare immunity on it for 4 sec, step is baseline and assass keeps crippling poison, and they're keeping their defensives (outlaw gets 2 more defs)

Sprint was 30secs for a short time by has been put back to 1min and rogues are not keeping defensives. Prep is gone and on outlaw Riposte replaces evasion so all three specs just have 1 evasion/parry 1 vanish (all on higher cd's than live) and also combat readiness is gone.

Feral - Powershifting CD (have fun getting stunned in caster form), talent to break roots on stampede roar (shares tier with a leap talent), losing shirvallah / healing in form / ysera's gift / NV / ward / leader of the pack healing (reworked as talent). Survival instincts CD is 3 minutes (up from 2, but gains a slight duration buff), losing decurse, and gaining a crappy dodge trait that is so badly designed.

There is no bonus to being in cat over caster in a stun in legion and you can just go to bear rather than caster the cd is only for going in the same form. Also something to point out with the pvp templates they are putting everyone at the same armor lvl. You don't need the sprint to break roots you can still shift everything. You can still get a lot of that healing and some new things from resto affinity. Survival instincts is still a 2min cd for feral (if you look on the actual alpha the calcs are wrong here and have been since 6.0) and now lasts 9secs and still has 2 charges, they also gave back the decurse.

Honestly I thought you would actually look into these if you were going to put this much into the reply but it would seem you didn't and just typed what was in your head on these. Feral's big whine on defenses is they just die in a stun because they have nothing to use in one well have you looked at the changes here? Notice a theme? Your problem is everyone's problem now so yes if feral defensives are "turds" so are everyone else's.

All this isn't to say there are no issues there always is but things have changed massively.

[Krusza]

What do you think the "cannot attack" line in wraith walk it means? Ams is also on a higher cd. And no one calls live dk mobility good so them getting something new isn't that strong.


Snares lasts 8secs in pvp, The defensive talents are vs mobility talents, losing Emancipate is like taking shapeshifting from feral and yet you underplay it. Losing divine protection (20% dmg reduction which was useable stunned and could be had as low as a 30sec cd is huge) Just having a 5min bubble/bop which many times is just instantly dispelled is bad. Bottom line less def and mobility than live which no one even calls ret live mobility good so...


Yes warriors can spec for mobility and have nothing else at all lol. They have no wall and dbts is a talent now and it replaces def stance lol. Dstance also lowers dmg done the same amount it lowers dmg taken lol.

But who needs multiple charges when you can shift everything( you have switch between other forms than cat vs the other melee just sit and take in roots and slows) have a 15sec gap closer passively run faster and multiple sprints all baseline.


Shamrage is useable stunned is a 1 min cd and lasts 15secs Astral Shift lasts 6secs and is on longer cd and not usable while stunned this is a massive downgrade. The trait is healing which is something they are toning down on dps specs that are strong which enh is very.


Sprint was 30secs for a short time by has been put back to 1min and rogues are not keeping defensives. Prep is gone and on outlaw Riposte replaces evasion so all three specs just have 1 evasion/parry 1 vanish (all on higher cd's than live) and also combat readiness is gone.



There is no bonus to being in cat over caster in a stun in legion and you can just go to bear rather than caster the cd is only for going in the same form. Also something to point out with the pvp templates they are putting everyone at the same armor lvl. You don't need the sprint to break roots you can still shift everything. You can still get a lot of that healing and some new things from resto affinity. Survival instincts is still a 2min cd for feral (if you look on the actual alpha the calcs are wrong here and have been since 6.0) and now lasts 9secs and still has 2 charges, they also gave back the decurse.

Honestly I thought you would actually look into these if you were going to put this much into the reply but it would seem you didn't and just typed what was in your head on these. Feral's big whine on defenses is they just die in a stun because they have nothing to use in one well have you looked at the changes here? Notice a theme? Your problem is everyone's problem now so yes if feral defensives are "turds" so are everyone else's.

I don't have alpha, so I'm assuming the calcs and info on wowhead is updated. Clearly it's never kept up to date then. Also with the wraith walk tooltip on the calc it doesn't say you can't attack. So that's obviously changed too.

I'm guessing all this shows really is that the alpha is very volatile at the moment and stuff is constantly changing (for once?) As long as blizzard actually listens to feedback it'll hopefully go back to how it was. All the alpha forums are just full of QQing and no actual info so it's been pretty hard to find.

Nearly everything the wow calc and wowhead info shows has been changed from the info on their site, they really need to do a better job keeping that updated. Thanks for the updates anyway.

[Viking]

They did this in cata which was later on reverted. These old idiot developers need to remember stupid mistakes made in the past.

- - - Updated - - -

Most of the old idiot developers, a.k.a the people that actually had talent, foresight, and common sense, have moved on to other games/companies.

Most of these idiotic changes are on the shoulders of the new imbecilic, egotistical developers who weren't here to remember the stupid mistakes of the past. They lack hindsight and can't be bothered to actually know what they're doing the majority of the time, and if you disagree, you are part of the problem according to them. Every single time I see someone bring up valid criticism or questioning, all I see from Blizz in their reply is a reciprocated, usually strawman question presented as an answer.

Random player: "Shapeshifting having a cd goes against years of supposed class design intent and feel. Why take it away now?"

Blizz: "You don't think powerful skills should have cd's?"

...

[Krusza]

Most of the old idiot developers, a.k.a the people that actually had talent, foresight, and common sense, have moved on to other games/companies.

Most of these idiotic changes are on the shoulders of the new imbecilic, egotistical developers who weren't here to remember the stupid mistakes of the past. They lack hindsight and can't be bothered to actually know what they're doing the majority of the time, and if you disagree, you are part of the problem according to them. Every single time I see someone bring up valid criticism or questioning, all I see from Blizz in their reply is a reciprocated, usually strawman question presented as an answer.

Random player: "Shapeshifting having a cd goes against years of supposed class design intent and feel. Why take it away now?"

Blizz: "You don't think powerful skills should have cd's?"

...

Seems accurate

[Soisoisoi]

I don't have alpha, so I'm assuming the calcs and info on wowhead is updated. Clearly it's never kept up to date then. Also with the wraith walk tooltip on the calc it doesn't say you can't attack. So that's obviously changed too.

I'm guessing all this shows really is that the alpha is very volatile at the moment and stuff is constantly changing (for once?) As long as blizzard actually listens to feedback it'll hopefully go back to how it was. All the alpha forums are just full of QQing and no actual info so it's been pretty hard to find.

Nearly everything the wow calc and wowhead info shows has been changed from the info on their site, they really need to do a better job keeping that updated. Thanks for the updates anyway.

It is updated. The tooltips on Wowhead for Wraith Walk have barely changed; they have always said "During this time all movement-impairing effects are suppressed but you may not attack / take no actions."
http://legion.wowhead.com/spell=2125...walk#changelog

Scroll to the bottom for the Change Log of the spell, you can mouseover to see the changes.

[Krusza]

It is updated. The tooltips on Wowhead for Wraith Walk have barely changed; they have always said "During this time all movement-impairing effects are suppressed but you may not attack / take no actions."
http://legion.wowhead.com/spell=2125...walk#changelog

Scroll to the bottom for the Change Log of the spell, you can mouseover to see the changes.

I was checking the class parts on WoWhead, it was still showing old tooltips.

Even though it was updated early March according to the site, the tooltips / ability changes haven't been.

[Vathius]

Been immune to something because of macro is op as fuck and not working as the game intended.

No other class is literally immune to a cc type because of a macro.

Swing away nerf bat. swing away.

[Rabbit]

don't worry not only is frozen ammo in the game still, MM has an additional 20sec duration slow.

You are aware that MM is losing a lot. They are losing basically all their defenses but a single charge of deterrence (not even two anymore), no master call or roar anymore. No traps, mediocre cc left, and only one snare breaker you have to spec into tied to your Disengage. But this isn't about hunters, this post is about ferals, so thanks for playing and lets get back to ferals.

Im not fond of ferals, though more afraid of their cousins the moonkins. How long is the cooldown going to be exactly?

[Deleted]

don't worry not only is frozen ammo in the game still, MM has an additional 20sec duration slow.

Don't worry, fucking warriors get 3 charges of Heroic Leap in addition to Charge in Legion. There will be no fucking way to kite a warrior without roots on short cds.

Oh and who cares?! Good DH can do 1v5.

[Sorthalis]

Ferals are literally only "OP" at 1800 rating where players panic and derp around when a feral pops incarn because they don't really know how to react to anything properly.

Even if they were OP in some world (outside of getting killed in random BGs and 1800 arenas), why does that justify overnerfing/pruning and making them dull to play in the next expansion?

Blizzard seem to use the same logic, at least they did in the past. One spec would be OP and then a patch later nerfed to the point of unviability. Being salty doesn't justify ruining specs.

And the thing is, that all the salty random BG spammers are flooding the hell out of the WoWDevs twitter account with praise when they announced this.

They simultaneously pull out in-form and passive healing whilst making the numbers crap and removing our ability to powershift. That's a huge hit to defensives. Even stampeding roar root break is damn PvP talent. If numbers on healing aren't ramped up massively as they are on the alpha at the moment, or we gain some defensives, it's going to be god awful.

People need to really shift out of the "I can't deal with it, therefore OP" mentality. You'll find that you get a lot better when you realize your own mistakes instead of blaming the game. It also negatively impacts the game when Blizzard make ridiculous changes to a class due to people being mega salty. They'd probably be happy if Blizzard literally deleted the spec.

Imagine, your spec that you've played for years, is suddenly "OP" in the eyes of people for a little while. Even though you enjoyed it when it wasn't "OP", you start receiving loads of hate for the spec you're playing. Then as a result, blizzard decides to make your spec absolutely turd in the next expansion just because it was seen as "OP" by random BG spammers for a bit.

Yeah, seems fair, right?

Well here is some data that is 100% against what you're saying. http://www.arenamate.net/?region=&re...600&ladder=3v3

TL;DR You're wrong, feral is too strong atm.

[morislayer]

This thread did a pretty good job of enlightening mmo-c that basically all specs get the mobility / damage reduction nerf bat across the board.

I would argue Warriors have lost the least but I know warriors would rek me on retorts, plus your boy Kalgan is back at the helm :P

One thing I am dissapointed is how they removed so much from each spec baseline but then added "New" flavorless talents in the pvp tree where the could have just but the mobility / damage reduction in as talents for those accustom to WoD playstyle. They are really reaching in this pvp design come Legion and I think they might have alienated a lot more pvp-ers with the major design changes

[Cempa]

Been immune to something because of macro is op as fuck and not working as the game intended.

No other class is literally immune to a cc type because of a macro.

Swing away nerf bat. swing away.

Immune no sir no such thing for Feral .. Yes its a macro but it still needs to obey GCD and you can get caught in caster form with a stun/CC and its all she wrote ..

Try playing feral without that macro and you will quickly rage quite ..

With the macro I need to actually preempt the snare/root (for it to be all it can be as well as avoiding telegraphing the shift) .. Example Mage chain root/snare or SV hunter or DK or even Warrior .. Against a good player if I don't preempt the root/snare its one step closer to a loss ..

Legion will be a free for all against feral in any open space .. But I guess its about 3v3 right? So now even Feral needs to pillar hump .. COOL!!

[Lulbalance]

Been immune to something because of macro is op as fuck and not working as the game intended.

No other class is literally immune to a cc type because of a macro.

Swing away nerf bat. swing away.

100% agree. For all the other bs justifications in this thread, that is the 'root' (no pun). It's up to bliz to balance defensives in a way that makes the nerf not kill the class.