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  1. #281
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    Quote Originally Posted by Adudu View Post

    Would probably kill and eat the tiger. Cannibalism isn't my thing and the tiger is much more likely to maul me after Hitler dies than Hitler is to maul me after the tiger dies. Though I imagine Hitler and the Tiger would collaborate and I'd be the one eaten in the end.

    As an aside, your morality is entirely subjective and not objectively quantifiable nor valid. Lots of animals kill for sport/fun and don't eat what they kill. There have also been plenty of mass-murderers or genocidal people who have been praised through history as great conquerors instead. Heck, American troops will likely have seemed like murderers to the Iraqi people, especially knowing videos have surfaced of american gunships killing fucking children in the streets.
    Neither is mine, but in this circumstance I'd rather not eat the tiger and let Hitler live.

    And yes, animals do kill for sport too. But a major point of my argument is that animals can't understand that what they did was wrong and why. I mean, you can train an animal to not do something (like training your dog to not piss on the carpet), but they'll never understand why they need to do that. As a human, you can understand that. Anders Brevik understood the consequences of killing all those people and he did it to get a message. He knew what he did was wrong but considered it worthwhile to spread his message. And, as it stands, it kind of worked, as he's now some sort of celebrity it seems. So, unlike any animal, a human, this human, did it all understanding the full consequences of his actions. This makes him less than an animal. And since rehabilitation isn't working and won't work in his case and we're 100% sure he did the killings... what's the point keeping him anymore?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kangodo View Post
    Criminals do not care about the law/rights.
    Normal people do care about the law/rights.
    We are normal people and not criminals.
    So we should care about the law/rights.

    It's quite simple
    There's a right of freedom too. So, why are criminals in a prison? I mean, we're violating their right to freedom, ain't I right?

    See, the argument goes both ways. Criminals are special cases of society, and due to the fact that they don't care about laws/rights, they are not being treated like normal people. Even keeping them imprisoned is proof of that. So why not go further and break more of their rights for the amount of rights they broke? In the end, it's one thing to steal a bread and another to kill 77 people. Yet both actors can be in the same prison, enjoying the same facilities. Even if we ignore punishment and only consider rehabilitation, it takes more effort to bend an iron than a straw. So more extreme actions need to be taken.

  2. #282
    Quote Originally Posted by Snowraven View Post
    There's a right of freedom too. So, why are criminals in a prison? I mean, we're violating their right to freedom, ain't I right?

    See, the argument goes both ways. Criminals are special cases of society, and due to the fact that they don't care about laws/rights, they are not being treated like normal people. Even keeping them imprisoned is proof of that. So why not go further and break more of their rights for the amount of rights they broke? In the end, it's one thing to steal a bread and another to kill 77 people. Yet both actors can be in the same prison, enjoying the same facilities. Even if we ignore punishment and only consider rehabilitation, it takes more effort to bend an iron than a straw. So more extreme actions need to be taken.
    In Norway, they are imprisoned when they are a danger to society. Not every country shoves people into jail for every minor offense in the book.

    Breivik is imprisoned because he constitutes a danger to society (see: 77 people shot dead / bombed). You can be kept in custody if the police believes you to be a threat to society, even if you didn't break -any- laws. You can do pretty serious crime in Norway and still not go to jail if the court deems you not to be a threat to society: you are given probation, and if you still keep on committing that same crime, only then are you imprisoned.

    Rehabilitation is a completely different subject. Imprisonment isn't exercised to enable rehabilitation. Rehabilitation is exercised to prevent further crime. Assuming of course, you live in a society where justice isn't driven by emotions or for-profit prison systems.

  3. #283
    Quote Originally Posted by Kangodo View Post
    Criminals do not care about the law/rights.
    Normal people do care about the law/rights.
    We are normal people and not criminals.
    So we should care about the law/rights.

    It's quite simple
    But we care about laws/rights that are meant for normal people (like freedom)... criminals arent normal people so they arent part of the same society-group as we.
    So laws arent part of criminals lifestyle so we should also take off their rights, since they dont care about them and they havent earned them. It doesnt make us criminals because we havent broken the law against normal people, and how could you break law against a criminal who is already outside the law. :P

    Just saying... the humane way of treating criminals is simply our substitute for not actually getting rid of the plague! In some cases it seems that we value human life more than it deserves. A mass murderer's life isnt worth much considering all they do is murder other people who might be contributing alot for the society.
    I dont mean we should kill everyone who commits a crime but those who have clearly committed a horrible crime multiple times and theres no questions about the evidence against him/her. (I might be cruel as hell... but all the money we have to spend to keep mass murderers and serial rapists alive in prisons could be used to save valuable lives, heck even starving kids in africa deserve the food more than those criminals do)

    And anyone who talks about troops of an army should smack themselves.... for thousands of years armies have fought and killed eachothers, its not the same. War is different from murder. When 2 countries are at war... by all means slaughter eachothers if you want, even civilians... but dont expect to have allies (or united society, rebellion inc!) if you kill civvies instead of soldiers of the other army.
    Last edited by Otaka; 2016-04-20 at 07:48 PM.

  4. #284
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by ParanoiD84 View Post
    You never know, mass killers in sweden is getting released, like Mattias Flink killed 7 people and is now a free man after 20 years. Now Breivik killed alot more people but they could do the same thing there.
    two different situations, Flink go on rampage after his GF break up and he have drink large quantities of alcohol. Seems to truly regret what he have done, and have been a exemplary prisoner then he was in prison. No threat to society.

    But as long as Breivik continue to "fight" it will be easy choice to extend the penalty becuse he is a threat to society.

  5. #285
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shnider View Post
    I'm sorry Norway, but human sympathy have a limit.
    Such kind of thinking is exactly the reason things happening in your country happen. When you decide that there is a limit to who you should treat with respect, this limit starts going lower and lower until your country ends up being in the tail of freedom rankings.

    Quote Originally Posted by Shnider View Post
    This is what they get for having lenient laws.
    What "this", one of the lowest crime rates in the world? I think they are okay with that.
    Quote Originally Posted by King Candy View Post
    I can't explain it because I'm an idiot, and I have to live with that post for the rest of my life. Better to just smile and back away slowly. Ignore it so that it can go away.
    Thanks for the avatar goes to Carbot Animations and Sy.

  6. #286
    Quote Originally Posted by Shnider View Post
    Hold on a second. You think killing 77 people deserves only 21 year in prison?

    I mean I am against death sentence and unjustified imprisonment. But come on. The guy killed 77 people out of hate and bigotry. People like that don't deserve 2nd chances.

    I can understand if killing 1 or 2 or even 3 people a mistake that can be repaired. but 77 people? are you serious debating me on this now? and the fuck my country have to do with anything? We are talking strictly on Norway and you had to to involve Saudi Arabia in a topic about Norway. Give me such a valid discussion or be done with it.
    Things will go a lot better for you when you realize that a 21 year term doesn't mean "21 years only, then freedom!".

  7. #287
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shnider View Post
    Hold on a second. You think killing 77 people deserves only 21 year in prison?

    I mean I am against death sentence and unjustified imprisonment. But come on. The guy killed 77 people out of hate and bigotry. People like that don't deserve 2nd chances.
    No, I don't, and I don't think you understand the point of the modern system of justice either. It is not about who deserves what. Punishment is not the point. I'm not even going to explain it to someone who still, in the 21st century, believes that vengeance in the law should be a thing.
    Quote Originally Posted by King Candy View Post
    I can't explain it because I'm an idiot, and I have to live with that post for the rest of my life. Better to just smile and back away slowly. Ignore it so that it can go away.
    Thanks for the avatar goes to Carbot Animations and Sy.

  8. #288
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shnider View Post
    That doesn't matter.
    And this is where you are mistaken. There are no exceptions: a humane society treats every single person decently, regardless of what they have done.

    Quote Originally Posted by Shnider View Post
    Believe me I understand it better than you do I didn't mention vengeance nor it have anything to do with it.

    The point is for a man to actually go ahead and commit a murder of 77 people should be locked away for the safety of the community. End of discussion.

    If he is mentally ill, then he should be in a mental institution until he gets better. if not, then imprisoned.
    He won't get out, until he is deemed rehabilitated. Relax.

    And yes, you did mention vengeance. Keyword "deserve".
    Quote Originally Posted by King Candy View Post
    I can't explain it because I'm an idiot, and I have to live with that post for the rest of my life. Better to just smile and back away slowly. Ignore it so that it can go away.
    Thanks for the avatar goes to Carbot Animations and Sy.

  9. #289
    Quote Originally Posted by Shnider View Post
    I know you are eager to involve my country in a discussion about norway. But that is simply not true... No one got killed for being gay by the saudi government lol.

    And btw. I am against capital punishment. All I asked was how come they didn't give him a life sentence.
    Because life sentences don't exist in Norway. The max is 21 or until he is no longer a threat to society, and the Norwegian courts have already gone on record that they don't think he'll ever not be a threat to society. Like, all of this was covered within the first few pages of this thread. So essentially, he was given a life sentence.

  10. #290
    Quote Originally Posted by Shnider View Post
    That doesn't matter. We are talking about a man who killed 77 people in a planned terrorist attack. I didn't even mention crime rate.

    The law itself protect such a terrorist is it being lenient.
    You really can't just make up exceptions to laws for the 1/1000000 chance exception. Norway's laws work, hell they work better than 99% of the worlds. Especially when it comes to crime and punishment which is really about stopping crime before it happens and making sure those who offend are punished but not in a way that their lives are over if they come out.

    You know that revolving door scenario that seems to happen in western countries that try to be more on the "Punish now and anyone inside must be treated like scum forever." style.

    Thing is about the 21 max system Norway has is that after 21 years you go in front of a panel of Judges who decide if you're safe enough to go free. Judges that want to keep their jobs and be paid. No Judge in Norway in 2030s are going to say "Yeah he's free to go.", the public and media outcry would be large and their jobs would be over. Brevik is not being released ever, no judge will risk their job and every time he goes to court it is because he's trying to keep the media focused on himself and the media being the media lap it up.

  11. #291
    Quote Originally Posted by Shnider View Post
    And this is my issue with. Don't you think that a maximum sentence being 21 year is too lenient? What keeps him from killing other people if he gets out?
    Because he isn't going to get out. They are never going to release him because they will never deem him not a threat to humanity. That's how it works. 21 years is the maximum they can sentence you to, but at the end of your 21 years if they think you are still a nutjob or you are going to kill again, they keep you locked up.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Thurin View Post
    Well, technically we have one, but the prisoner has to be reevaluated every 5 years
    also apparently this

  12. #292
    Quote Originally Posted by En dum en View Post
    It's 21 years then another trial. I don't think he will ever see the light again. They will just prolong his sentence.
    Honestly considering how light his punishment is, I wouldn't be surprised if they let him out right away. If he's smart, he's just start behaving good for the last 5 or 6 years of his prison sentence, act like he is really remorseful, and that would be enough to fool the justice system. Speaking of which, it sounds pretty broken. The purpose of the justice system should be to punish but also rehabilitate offenders.... it sounds like they are doing neither in this case.

  13. #293
    The Unstoppable Force May90's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shnider View Post
    And this is my issue with. Don't you think that a maximum sentence being 21 year is too lenient? What keeps him from killing other people if he gets out?
    Like people above mentioned, 21 year is not necessarily going to be 21 year. The reasoning behind 21 year being maximum and not the life sentence is that this way the society essentially acknowledges: "We give everyone a chance, every single person. We don't think that there are people that are completely hopeless". It is more than just law itself, it is the attitude of the government and the society towards its members. Now, we can debate whether 21 year is too little or too much - but the principle is there. And the principle often matters more than implementation.
    Quote Originally Posted by King Candy View Post
    I can't explain it because I'm an idiot, and I have to live with that post for the rest of my life. Better to just smile and back away slowly. Ignore it so that it can go away.
    Thanks for the avatar goes to Carbot Animations and Sy.

  14. #294
    Quote Originally Posted by Kharthak View Post
    Really repulsive. Anders intends to show how foolish that prison system is, and is doing a great job of it. Anyone not blinded to the real world by bleeding heart ideology can see how unjust this all is.
    You're right.

    It's unjust that he's locked up for the rest of his life, and not dragged out back to be executed for the bloodthirst of non-citizens. WHERE'S THE JUSTICE?!

  15. #295
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kharthak View Post
    Really repulsive. Anders intends to show how foolish that prison system is, and is doing a great job of it. Anyone not blinded to the real world by bleeding heart ideology can see how unjust this all is.
    Anyone not blinded to the real world can look up crime rates in Norway and compare them to crime rates in countries with "less foolish" prison systems to see which approach works and which does not.

    If by "justice" you mean "an eye for an eye", then yes, it is unjust. And I prefer it that way!
    Quote Originally Posted by King Candy View Post
    I can't explain it because I'm an idiot, and I have to live with that post for the rest of my life. Better to just smile and back away slowly. Ignore it so that it can go away.
    Thanks for the avatar goes to Carbot Animations and Sy.

  16. #296
    Quote Originally Posted by Shnider View Post
    Hold on a second. You think killing 77 people deserves only 21 year in prison?

    I mean I am against death sentence and unjustified imprisonment. But come on. The guy killed 77 people out of hate and bigotry. People like that don't deserve 2nd chances.

    I can understand if killing 1 or 2 or even 3 people a mistake that can be repaired. but 77 people? are you serious debating me on this now? and the fuck my country have to do with anything? We are talking strictly on Norway and you had to to involve Saudi Arabia in a topic about Norway. Give me such a valid discussion or be done with it.
    What's the difference between killing 1, 2, 77 or a thousand people? The intent is what matters. It would be enough if Breivik only managed to kill one person on that island, considering how heavily armed he was and that he wasn't trying to hide his intentions, the court would know that this was a terrorist attack, he killed those people in cold blood and would kill more given a chance. The sentence would be the same regardless of the number of victims.

    What I REALLY don't understand is how do you propose someone make up for murder. Give a few camels to the family of the victim? A murder isn't something you can repair. You can regret it, you can try to repent, you can kill yourself out of grief, but no matter what you do, you won't even be able to make up for it. It doesn't even matter if you caused someone's death in an accident or killed in cold blood, the result is the same. Obviously I'm not saying every murderer should be punished equally, I do believe people who really did nothing wrong and caused a death just by being in the wrong place at the wrong time shouldn't be punished at all - I think just knowing that you caused a death is punishment enough for normal people.
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