Did we loose a bunch of sustain? Alpha testers imput welcome

[EternalHungers]

Based on what im seeing, form an elementals perspective, we lost almost all of our sustain. It seems the only healing spell we now have is healing surge, but we lost healing rain, stone bulwark, flames of life, healing stream, ancestral guidance, natures guardian sham rage and more or less all forms of healing/absorbs and are left with only surge and the artifact traits that buff it and auto heal at low health.

i dont have access to alpha so maybe im missing the fact that any of them are still there but it feels like our sustain is gone. Spriest heal by doing dmg and have bubble/PW:S, Balance have resto affinity and many defensives. They are our hybrid caster/healer counterparts but it feels like we just have the lowest by alot, even compared to classes that shouldnt be healing.

If anyone on alpha can shed some light on this it would be much appreciated. If not R.I.P. our already poor pvp.
Thanks,
concerned Shaman.

[FalcFalcFalc]

If you're talking survivability, yes Elemental has lost quite a bit and could pose an issue. However, many classes have lost their survivability tools as well. It's too early to tell as numbers are all out of whack.

[Inq]

You have pretty much covered the pruning. We have basically only got Astral Shift as a means of defensive and the talents provide buffs to dps only.

However, and unfortunately this is current bugged for me on Alpha, the Earth Elemental alpha tooltip reads:"Call forth a Greater Earth Elemental to protect the caster and her allies." This is potentially a big change, as we currently find even with primal elementalist talented, we only receive a personal dmg reduction and increase to healing through Reinforce. I wish the ability was working for me on Alpha alas it is not atm. But clearly, Earth Elemental in Legion is going to provide a party / raid wide buff.

Furthermore, the current direction appears to be that Healing Surge will have the potential to be a strong heal: Alpha Tooltip-"Heals a friendly target for X. Healing increased by up to 100% based on Maelstrom spent". This presents a pretty big change in that we can actively buff healing surge by using up maelstrom.

My initial view on Alpha was: crap, we have lost so many abilities, but on further thought it appears that Blizz is trying to fine tune us into Primary Dps, with a touch of very powerful off healing when needed. I'm a little sad to lose the option of talented defensives, but if they can get healing surge, and earth elemental right, then maybe we will be in a less confused state.

Let's be real, AG has been wet noodle all expansion, stone bulwark is useless, healing rain redundant, stream often not worth the gcd, and natures guardian only really viable on progress XX months ago. IF they get this right, we will have lost a lot of bloated waffle abilities. Let's watch this space.

[Kralljin]

Y But clearly, Earth Elemental in Legion is going to provide a party / raid wide buff.

I have no idea why so many people get hooked on that line.

Read the current Earth Elemental (totem) tooltip:

Summons an Earth Totem with X health at the feet of the caster, calling forth a Greater Earth Elemental to protect the caster and <his/her> allies.

With "protect" Blizzard means Tanking, that the Earth Elemental might actually become a legit emergency "tank" is quite speculative considering the history of that pet.

At this point, i'm not even sure if Earth Elemental will the see the live servers when Legion hits, there is currently no point to this skill, leaving perhaps some interaction with PE aside.

[Inq]

I have no idea why so many people get hooked on that line.

I stand corrected. To be honest, Earth Elemental has been so worthless for so long I had forgotten the original live tooltip.

At this point, i'm not even sure if Earth Elemental will the see the live servers when Legion hits, there is currently no point to this skill, leaving perhaps some interaction with PE aside.

This could be the case I suppose. What intrigues me is the fact it has been given a 2min CD on Alpha and a 15sec duration, as opposed to 5 mins CD and 1 min duration. The PE talent on Alpha confuses things further "...Also grants direct control over your Fire and Storm elementals". This must be the reason why the Earth Ele can not be controlled on Alpha. If so I am likely wrong about it's real raid/party benefit, which is disappointing.

Maybe it will just be a genuine DPS / Oh Sh*t CD...The low CD and duration hints at this a little.

[EternalHungers]

I get the reasoning behind the argument that they take away all those healing spells and make healing surge our big healing spell as a way to "consolidate" our healing, but we no longer have the ability to ista-cast any healing unlike so many others, the malestrom cost is really high(4 casts MAX before oom*) a 2sec cast (Shadowmend/regrowth 1.5) and i know the numbers are still being tuned but it shows our healing surge to be less, at 300%SP (or 600% with MS) but shadow mend does 700% plus Vampiric heals and PW:S and Balanced druids getting 700% instant every 30 sec /Rejuv/4% hp every 5sec... so its not consolidating its just missing half.

[Nyoken]

I get the reasoning behind the argument that they take away all those healing spells and make healing surge our big healing spell as a way to "consolidate" our healing, but we no longer have the ability to ista-cast any healing unlike so many others, the malestrom cost is really high(4 casts MAX before oom*) a 2sec cast (Shadowmend/regrowth 1.5) and i know the numbers are still being tuned but it shows our healing surge to be less, at 300%SP (or 600% with MS) but shadow mend does 700% plus Vampiric heals and PW:S and Balanced druids getting 700% instant every 30 sec /Rejuv/4% hp every 5sec... so its not consolidating its just missing half.

Yeaaaa just like on Live now!! AG vs VE. VE does twice as much healing as AG does....fucking twice as much. Can't remember which fight it was but, we compared numbers and my AG did something like 800-900k whereas our SPs did something over 2 million with his. So yea, i'm confident our "healing" is gonna suck even more in Legion, I really want it to be good...but yea, not gonna happen.....

[Deleted]

If you're talking survivability, yes Elemental has lost quite a bit

To think this was actually possible
:|

[EternalHungers]

i dont mind combining our heals into one big one, in fact thats kinda nice, but id rather have alot of small and crappy heals and absorbs that you can cast while moving(ie. instant) rather than having to stop and cast every single one. It would be nice if maelstrom made it instant but that ship has sailed. Not only that but it takes away alot of our dps to heal for any significance (in the form form of malestrom cost), and the chance healing surge will be tuned to be equal to all the healing forms that other classes have is miniscule.

On a side note we got astral guidance, but it seems its only useful to heal others, we are not included unless the wording is a tad weird. Even if it does affect us it still directly nails one our biggest weaknesses. If we are in a pinch our ability do do damage and healing suffers which in turn makes the percent converted into healing is reduced. So if we need to move or try to juke as to not not be interrupted our ability to heal through damage is gone.

One last thing, a rant mostly, im just mad that there was a talent that we could have gotten and would have been a perfect change. Im talking about the pvp talent Demon Skin, which feels like it could have been a perfect as Stone Bulwark. i am miffed. that is all! gooddaysir!!!!1!1!

[Riistov]

Yeaaaa just like on Live now!! AG vs VE. VE does twice as much healing as AG does....fucking twice as much. Can't remember which fight it was but, we compared numbers and my AG did something like 800-900k whereas our SPs did something over 2 million with his. So yea, i'm confident our "healing" is gonna suck even more in Legion, I really want it to be good...but yea, not gonna happen.....

Judging by the Alpha videos I have watched, all hybrids will be equally crappy at off-healing. Somehow I just know that we will be the worst though.

[zurm]

Judging by the Alpha videos I have watched, all hybrids will be equally crappy at off-healing. Somehow I just know that we will be the worst though.

Given how maelstrom works, you're basically in the same boat as enhancement: you have to sacrifice DPS to heal, but if you spend the 25 maelstrom your heals are actually pretty damn potent. The only DPS that retains free, instant healing (as far as I know) is feral druids, and they most likely will have to use that rotationally since blood talons is still a thing... it's also a much weaker heal than it is on live, relative to HP. Having played a bunch of elemental and enhancement on alpha I can say that at least from a leveling perspective I had a much easier time (even with the terrible gear and huge mob buff they put out) on my shaman then I did on pretty much any other DPS. Everyone is upset that their favorite spec is losing abilities, but what a lot of people fail to notice is that EVERYONE is getting gutted. HARD. DPS/Tank self-sustain and CC is the hardest hit for every spec in the game. Warlocks actually have to use their HP as a DPS resource, so at least you are in a better position then they are! Don't compare yourself to your live version, because that's disingenuous; instead compare yourself to other specs once they give Legion the beta designation (meaning major overhauls are unlikely).

[EternalHungers]

Not at all, im comparing legion elemental to legion shadow priest and balance druid. they are closest to ele in in that they are a hybrid dps caster spec with heals as an one of the other specs. As such staying in the back of a fight is our first line of defense so our healing doesnt need to be monumental, but our kit only has the passive heal at low health form artifact weapon, ancestral guidance(IF talented and we loose mobility) and Healing surge. On the other hand shadow and balance seem to have more ways to heal themselves and alot of those are either passive, instant or achieved through dealing damage. Plus i mentioned above the numbers on surge are actually less than the Bdruid and Spriest heals, but those can change.

One other thing, if you look back at the way shamans have been since as long as i remember, our kit was revolved around alot of small heals and absorbs witch kept us close to full health rather than massive cds that healed us to full or saved us from death at low health. Now its not bad to get rid of fluff spells that provide minor benefit but we still dont have good defensive CDs (in fact sham rage=>Astral shift is a significant nerf) unlike balance/shadow. I'm just looking for class balance, and as it stands now we seem to be easy to damage hard to protect. Id be thrilled for something like Flames of Life glyph made baseline(45% FS dmg converted into healing) and/or a passive version of stone bulwark, like every 5 sec we get a small absorb. I dont want or expect us to be healing gods, i just want one or two minor ways to help our survivability and both of those could do that and only affect us and are passive so no button bloat.

[Riistov]

, i just want one or two minor ways to help our survivability and both of those could do that and only affect us and are passive so no button bloat.

I think you hit the nail on the head right there. Looking at other similar classes (spriest, balance) it still feels like we're coming up a little short in the defensive department.

[zurm]

On the other hand shadow and balance seem to have more ways to heal themselves and alot of those are either passive, instant or achieved through dealing damage. Plus i mentioned above the numbers on surge are actually less than the Bdruid and Spriest heals, but those can change.

Having actually played these on alpha, I don't agree with this statement. I'm not sure where you're getting this from, but I DO caution you to realize that the datamined info, even those on the wowhead and wowdb legion calcs should be taken with a grain of salt.

Shadow priests still have power word shield, and a heal which HARMS THEM AS A DOT in combat. Dispersion is a better CD than astral shift, but they do also wear cloth and I'm pretty certain they lost the default defensive bonus they used to have in shadowform. Oh yeah, and dispersion is only a 60% dr now, not 90%... so it's not a near-immunity anymore.

Balance druids only have healing touch (and it's much, much weaker than healing surge) unless they go resto affinity, in which case they lose out on the bonuses of feral or guardian affinity (and won't have any abilities in bear or cat form). And with reso affinity they get some better self healing, but the mana cost is excessive and hardly efficient (oh yeah, and they have to leave moonkin form to use most heals). And barkskin is only a 20% dr... even if it ends up being technically better than astral shift, I don't think we're talking massive margins. If bear and cat form (outside of being able to stealth) are useless, how do they have a leg up?

One other thing, if you look back at the way shamans have been since as long as i remember, our kit was revolved around alot of small heals and absorbs witch kept us close to full health rather than massive cds that healed us to full or saved us from death at low health.

This is exactly what I cautioned you against. EVERY DPS class had a ton of sustain, even in WoD, and they ALL lost it. EVERY. SINGLE. ONE. Stop looking to the past, this does NO ONE any good.

I'm just looking for class balance, and as it stands now we seem to be easy to damage hard to protect.

How can you make this statement when numbers tuning hasn't happened yet? What's to say they won't double the duration and/or effect of astral shift during tuning? You can't make any balance assumptions yet... the best you can do is look at the buttons you have and say "GIVEN the intent of the legion changes, what am I missing that I can't function without?". Free sustain is gone. Basically all defensive CDs are nerfed across the board (especially immunities and CDs that used to be 90% DR). CC is heavily nerfed. Given this as a fact you cannot argue or change, what tools are you really missing that puts you at a real disadvantage to other classes (and I caution you to use examples like boomkin or spriest without actually knowing their tools, because you clearly didn't understand how they were nerfed).

Also, compared to the two classes you are comparing yourself two, you have other advantage in DESIGN. Your AoE vastly outstrips a shadow priest's, and is comparable to a moonkin (probably better if the mobs are tightly clumped). Your burst DPS vastly outstrips the capabilities of both classes, especially with lucky procs resetting lava burst. You have higher mobility than both thanks to gust of wind, and better CC capabilities than both. Even ASSUMING your statement about defensive balance is true, would you give up some/all of this for more defense?

[EternalHungers]

Thank you. This post was originally mostly to ask alpha testers if elemental was viable at pvp in legion. If we are, great, question answered. If our defensives are on par with other casters then im happy. On a side note Im actually very happy with the changes to our offensive power and look forward to legion for that. Im not here to start crying about how weak we are, im just concerned that the class i love will under perform in the area of the game i love playing most, PvP. I was just wondering if we are getting left behind as the squishiest targets. For all i know we could be going back to a time like MoP and scale well late into the expansion and become extremely deadly glass cannons, but i highly doubt that. Alpha/Beta testing seem like the perfect time to test to see if we do need to address strengths and weaknesses. Never once have i said that our damage/cc/mobility seems lacking, just that our defencives seem LOW, not non-existent.

if you check out hogmanlolz youtube First impressions on elemental "watch?v=sEwgpp-rwt4"
Actually points out alot of the same things ive been saying, its not the end of the world, just maybe we need a slight increase to our survivability.
sorry its not a link, im mostly a lurker so i cant post links.