[Feral] Legion Discussion

[Tellof]

Why isnt there a Trait in the Feral Artifact that gives increased duration to Savage Roar? Instead of one of the other useless ones. Even a 1second increase pr trait wouldnt be a major change ?

It's a talent and not a baseline ability, even if it is used in most builds. If you're not running Savage Roar, what does the trait do?

In cases of other classes, they usually have a baseline ability that is augmented by a talent in which case the trait will cover both bases, but without there being something replaced by taking Savage Roar they have nothing to work off of.

Personally I think the duration is agonizingly short, and feels bad hence why I've stuck to Resto mostly. If they made the duration longer such that I could fit more bites in I might consider spending more time as it.

[Meanshield]

It's a talent and not a baseline ability, even if it is used in most builds. If you're not running Savage Roar, what does the trait do?

In cases of other classes, they usually have a baseline ability that is augmented by a talent in which case the trait will cover both bases, but without there being something replaced by taking Savage Roar they have nothing to work off of.

Personally I think the duration is agonizingly short, and feels bad hence why I've stuck to Resto mostly. If they made the duration longer such that I could fit more bites in I might consider spending more time as it.

They cud just make it talent-applicable. So it makes different things for different talents. Works for Demon Blades / Demon's Bite for Demon Hunters.

[Tellof]

They cud just make it talent-applicable. So it makes different things for different talents. Works for Demon Blades / Demon's Bite for Demon Hunters.

Which is exactly what I already talked about. There isn't a good option for them to pair with Savage Roar on the trait.

[Scarbrohelpme]

Why isnt there a Trait in the Feral Artifact that gives increased duration to Savage Roar? Instead of one of the other useless ones. Even a 1second increase pr trait wouldnt be a major change ?

This is an interesting case, while there is not a specific trait that directly addresses SR duration, there are two that indirectly make SR management easier. SR duration is limiting because we operate with a very finite amount of resources; traits which increase resource generation indirectly make SR duration less of an issue. Feral Power (Shred Crit Chance) and Ashamane's Energy(Energy per second after using TF) both increase the total amount of resources available over the course of a given encounter while the amount of resources required to maintain SR remains static; with both of these traits now going to 4/4 in 7.2 this becomes even less of an issue.

[Meanshield]

This is an interesting case, while there is not a specific trait that directly addresses SR duration, there are two that indirectly make SR management easier. SR duration is limiting because we operate with a very finite amount of resources; traits which increase resource generation indirectly make SR duration less of an issue. Feral Power (Shred Crit Chance) and Ashamane's Energy(Energy per second after using TF) both increase the total amount of resources available over the course of a given encounter while the amount of resources required to maintain SR remains static; with both of these traits now going to 4/4 in 7.2 this becomes even less of an issue.

Savage Roar is still a eyesore. They removed SnD and Inquisition for Rogue and Paladin respectively, why cant they either make this an integration into the spec or make it so its not a huge nuissance. Yeah, 7.2 traits make it less of an inconvenience but its still inconvenient. I rejoiced when I saw it got removed post-WoD, even though I liked the way Feral was in WoD, but when it got re-intro'd as a talent at less damage and duration and it still being far better than the other two selections I cried a little.

Before when the damage of Feral was lacking it was an even bigger problem. Now that Feral Damage has been buffed alot and will be buffed by anoterh 15-20% in 725 on most used abilities, it's not a huge problem, but i still think it shud have a longer duration - even if they had to nerf the damage of it. Make it a passive talent-choice at 10%, double duration and make it 15% damage or give it some increases via traits. They've completely bungled this imo.

[Shadowsongs]

Now that Feral Damage has been buffed alot and will be buffed by anoterh 15-20% in 725 on most used abilities, it's not a huge problem, but i still think it shud have a longer duration - even if they had to nerf the damage of it. Make it a passive talent-choice at 10%, double duration and make it 15% damage or give it some increases via traits. They've completely bungled this imo.

They are adding that because they removing the aura that increases the damage of most of our abilities by 17% and buffing each spell individually.
So yeah not even a buff.



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[Epoch]

Now that Feral Damage has been buffed alot and will be buffed by anoterh 15-20% in 725 on most used abilities, it's not a huge problem, but i still think it shud have a longer duration - even if they had to nerf the damage of it. Make it a passive talent-choice at 10%, double duration and make it 15% damage or give it some increases via traits. They've completely bungled this imo.

The buff you are referring too wasn't really buff, but an attempt at a band-aid fix for feral scaling. It was 4% and ferals are still having issues.

Until feral is fixed the way that other specs have been, we will continue to see this pattern - start out good at the beginning of an expansion, towards the middle we fall behind because we scale poorly. This is a design issue. We don't benefit from haste like other dps specs, so instead of fixing that, blizzard will continue to throw band aid fixes as a coverup.

It would be nice if scaling was fixed and we weren't so reliant on certain stats, gear or legendaries; but look at it from blizzard's perspective: Why allocate man hours and money to fix a spec which is one of the lowest represented specs in game? Keep in mind, they are ultimately a corporation and in it to make $, not spend $ to fix a screw up even if they caused it.

[Meanshield]

The buff you are referring too wasn't really buff, but an attempt at a band-aid fix for feral scaling. It was 4% and ferals are still having issues.

Until feral is fixed the way that other specs have been, we will continue to see this pattern - start out good at the beginning of an expansion, towards the middle we fall behind because we scale poorly. This is a design issue. We don't benefit from haste like other dps specs, so instead of fixing that, blizzard will continue to throw band aid fixes as a coverup.

It would be nice if scaling was fixed and we weren't so reliant on certain stats, gear or legendaries; but look at it from blizzard's perspective: Why allocate man hours and money to fix a spec which is one of the lowest represented specs in game? Keep in mind, they are ultimately a corporation and in it to make $, not spend $ to fix a screw up even if they caused it.

Well I dont think money is the issue. Its just a lack of knowing what to do. I think the WoD-model was pretty good for Feral, ..

[Shadowsongs]

Same scaling issue was present in wod.


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[Deleted]

Kraineth stated this better than I did. Basically if you think feral has a scaling problem then you're a clueless idiot who's idea of independent thought is reading the cesspool of idiots that are official forums/mmoc.

[Kraineth]

The buff you are referring too wasn't really buff, but an attempt at a band-aid fix for feral scaling. It was 4% and ferals are still having issues.

Until feral is fixed the way that other specs have been, we will continue to see this pattern - start out good at the beginning of an expansion, towards the middle we fall behind because we scale poorly. This is a design issue. We don't benefit from haste like other dps specs, so instead of fixing that, blizzard will continue to throw band aid fixes as a coverup.

1. You need to stop parroting the "we scale poorly" bullcrap that people who have no idea what they are talking about have been throwing around since the beginning of the game.

2. Literally zero of the buffs feral has gotten thus far in Legion have been for scaling issues. We did very well in both EN and ToV. The release of Nighthold coincided with a lot of various tuning changes in addition to tier sets. The original 4% buff to feral on ptr was because of legendary nerfs, then another 4% because they nerfed the rip artifact trait. Then we got 8% because a lot of the Nighthold fights weren't ideal for feral, and specs like assassination who were getting fed tier bonuses looked better in comparison.

And the most recent 4% was basically for no reason at all other than a lot of people kicked and screamed on the class development forums because feral wasn't number 1.

3. We benefit from haste just like other energy specs, through more resource generation. We also get 50% more haste from gear than other specs, largely as an easy way to make haste semi-attractive to us. At many points in the expansion haste has been even with, if not ahead of, other secondary stats for DPS value.

[Shadowsongs]

I'm sorry but if you think feral has a "scaling problem" then you're fucking autistic and shouldn't be allowed to post. Clueless idiots jesus fuck

Wow you really have psychological issues..I feel sorry for you.


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[Tradu]

Savage Roar is still a eyesore. They removed SnD and Inquisition for Rogue and Paladin respectively, why cant they either make this an integration into the spec or make it so its not a huge nuissance. Yeah, 7.2 traits make it less of an inconvenience but its still inconvenient. I rejoiced when I saw it got removed post-WoD, even though I liked the way Feral was in WoD, but when it got re-intro'd as a talent at less damage and duration and it still being far better than the other two selections I cried a little.

Before when the damage of Feral was lacking it was an even bigger problem. Now that Feral Damage has been buffed alot and will be buffed by anoterh 15-20% in 725 on most used abilities, it's not a huge problem, but i still think it shud have a longer duration - even if they had to nerf the damage of it. Make it a passive talent-choice at 10%, double duration and make it 15% damage or give it some increases via traits. They've completely bungled this imo.

And removing Inq/SnD made those specs more boring to play, because it removed decisionmaking when it comes to finishers.

- - - Updated - - -

Wow you really have psychological issues..I feel sorry for you.


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He might, but he's not wrong. Feral does not have scaling issues in Legion(Feral actually scales very well with stats).

- - - Updated - - -

3. We benefit from haste just like other energy specs, through more resource generation. We also get 50% more haste from gear than other specs, largely as an easy way to make haste semi-attractive to us. At many points in the expansion haste has been even with, if not ahead of, other secondary stats for DPS value.

We also gain extra benefit from haste through Clearcasting procs(so even more energy, effectively), and on multitarget(especially with BrS, but even without it), haste's value skyrockets because the extra resources get spent on powerful abilities like Rip/Rake, which have a "cap" on how much energy can be spent on them on ST, after which all excess energy gets spent on weaker abilities, while when you add more targets, that "cap" increases because there's more targets available to use those good abilities on.
One more thing that increases haste's value is our best singletarget trinket(by quite a lot, at least if you ignore unrealistic trinkets like Chaos Talisman/Six Feather Fan), Nightblooming Frond, which benefits quite a lot from haste(Frond is almost enough to push haste to be roughly equal to the other stats on its own)

[Zanzha]

Majority of these scaling complaints come from us doing great in the first tier where gear was shite and poorly at the start of nighhold with better gear. What most don't seem to realise was that this had nothing to do with feral's scaling with primary or secondary stats and everything to do with a plethora of other classes and speccs receiving significant buffs while feral, as it was in a strong spot at the time actually got hit with some relatively minor, but still significant nerfs like the rip trait.

Not to mention the fights in EN playing well to ferals strengths compared to NH where we're somewhat up against the odds in encounter design. But it's really easy to see how the perception of feral scaling poorly evolved, but if you really want to compare scaling just go sim yourself and a few other members of your raid team and look at the un-normalised weights. While scaling certainly isn't linear, and in some cases even exponential, it should give a rough idea of the position we're in.

Honestly I just want everyone to calm the fuck down, I'm hyped as shit for tomb and unless the slew of class changes in 7.2.5 result in buffing other speccs significantly again while ignoring us we might even be on the chopping block for nerfs, everything I've seen from ptr for us looks good, best traits available, strong setbonus, and plenty of fights that play to our strengths.

[Chipies]

Is goin SotF really out of the question? I mean, I use it normally and makes me enjoy feral more, and I could dare say i do more dps with it.
Now i know SotF isnt good for lets say, the Agatha Challenge since the +25% dmg and the easier uptime thanks to the predator talent. But other than that, makes me have more sustained everything.
inb4 "sotf is better for u cuz u bad"

[Tradu]

Is goin SotF really out of the question? I mean, I use it normally and makes me enjoy feral more, and I could dare say i do more dps with it.
Now i know SotF isnt good for lets say, the Agatha Challenge since the +25% dmg and the easier uptime thanks to the predator talent. But other than that, makes me have more sustained everything.
inb4 "sotf is better for u cuz u bad"

On ST it's completely out of the question, yes. For sustained cleave it's quite good, but there aren't any fights in NH like that(Botanist non-mythic is closest).

[Chipies]

I guess my point of view is from a casual player, I really enjoy the "spammy" gameplay, actively doing abilities, shred, rake and rip everything, also while ferocious biting (although it doesn't do much damage reliably). Waiting for energy regeneration bores me too much.
I guess casual gameplay is not the point in this thread, hence the constant complaining about savage roar and how it is indeed a boring ability (imo they should at least reduce the energy cost, if they don't want to increase duration) and how feral lags behind other classes who have it easier doing good damage.
Also maybe in the end I'm just searching for approval if using SotF is ok, since generally the mentality is "omg if you don't follow a guide step by step you're bad"
I guess in the end if someone complains, I can just say "I play however the fuck I want"

[-aiko-]

It's definitely your decision, but even as a casual raider your goal should be to contribute to your raid. Soul of the Forest is a significant DPS loss on most fights.

[Zanzha]

I guess my point of view is from a casual player, I really enjoy the "spammy" gameplay, actively doing abilities, shred, rake and rip everything, also while ferocious biting (although it doesn't do much damage reliably). Waiting for energy regeneration bores me too much.

Honestly the best thing I can suggest is playing incarn with CoF trinket if you want something a bit spammier, it performs very close to SR in singletarget scenarios (varying on fight length) while giving you that one less thing to manage and allowing you to sneak more bites in from time to time. Outside of your incar it won't quite be as spammy as sotf and you will occaisionally have to pool or wait for energy, but not often.

But yeh, if your after something a bit easier that still performs well try incarn out.
End of the day nobody can tell you exactly what to do, but that attitude can come off pretty abrasive in a team environment where there is pressure to perform.

[Deleted]

Anyone else disappointed in blizzard with 7.1.5 so far? why ignore feral when it needs changes for its gameplay? instead they fix destro locks and disc priests but ignore feral when it has its issues too.. do they even play feral over there?