How do you neutralize an ideology?

[Slant]

Just saying Israel has had less deaths from terrorist attacks in the last two years than Europe sure there is a moral conundrum but, the Israeli government came to the conclusion that they serve their own citizens first and other people second.

As for Saudi Arabia being a dumpsite for everything wrong with Islam they have Mecca and Medina they have the holiest places in Islam. Yet significant numbers of the Saudi elite continue to support radical Islam with money, supplies, and fighters. They aren't the dumpsite for everything wrong with Islam they ARE the SOURCE of everything wrong with Islam.

So, if a Christian does something wrong, we get to blame Italy for that because the Vatican happens to be in Rome? What kind of logic is that? You can't just "place" people wherever you like. That's now how the real world works. You can't even bloody land in Saudi Arabia if they don't allow you. They could shoot you right out of the sky if they chose to. What kind of fucked up third world country do you think Saudi Arabia is?

Some Saudis may finance radical Islam, but you better be prepared to prove that it's the royal family doing it, otherwise I don't see how you can blame it on the nation.

[Daedius]

Contradict every step of it.

[Raamm]

So, if a Christian does something wrong, we get to blame Italy for that because the Vatican happens to be in Rome? What kind of logic is that? You can't just "place" people wherever you like. That's now how the real world works. You can't even bloody land in Saudi Arabia if they don't allow you. They could shoot you right out of the sky if they chose to. What kind of fucked up third world country do you think Saudi Arabia is?

Some Saudis may finance radical Islam, but you better be prepared to prove that it's the royal family doing it, otherwise I don't see how you can blame it on the nation.

The Vatican doesn't systematically finance and support terrorism. As for proving that living members that are active political figures have financed terrorism that's hard but, the lines do exist however indirect they are. But, then again thats like proving the CIA assassinated Faisal of Saudi Arabia (Left wingish saudi king who founded opec) the pieces fit but you have no glue.

[Slant]

The Vatican doesn't systematically finance and support terrorism. As for proving that living members that are active political figures have financed terrorism that's hard but, the lines do exist however indirect they are. But, then again thats like proving the CIA assassinated Faisal of Saudi Arabia (Left wingish saudi king who founded opec) the pieces fit but you have no glue.

You're losing my interest by now. If you can't see that you can't just "dump" people anywhere you like, then I can't help you. I think your way of thinking is rather simplistic and a bit childish. You'll realise at some point in your life that it isn't always as easy as you want it to be.

[Deleted]

ah whatever not worth the hassle

[hrugner]

Offer a better idea, let people experience that idea in practice without alienating them for holding to other ideas.

For example, Western life is pretty damn sweet. Once people become entrenched in the remarkable ease of life and self importance it offers, it's pretty hard to make people hang their blue jeans in the closet for a burka again.

Pretty much this. There's a few hiccups where the provided benefit of an ideology is unprovable and immaterial, at which point the competition is against a phantom and a bit harder to pin down. Converting a communist to capitalism generally took a walk through a grocery store, immaterial ideology is a different sort of puzzle.

With some ideologies you just offer an easier version of the same ideology over and over, fracturing the group at each step, and eventually giving adherents a way out. If you wanted to get rid of, for instance, antinatalism you'd provide a simplified no-effort antinatalism, so rather than preserving the world's happiness, protecting it's environment from over population and sparing children the pain of existence, you'd instead offer only the sparing of children while ignoring all the purpose behind refusing to have children and attach it to another ideology. You'd then proceed to provide low effort variations of other ethological fragments and attach them to other ideologies.

[HumbleDuck]

You need to communicate with them in their own ways and convince them that faith is not a productive trait. The rest will move towards moderation on its own.
They use social media to get into western societies, because that's western way of communication, their way of communication is word of mouth, we should find key players in Islamic nations ( probably religious figures) and support moderate ones to spread the message. Or if there are none, we should make some. Britain has a great record at this.

[Anonymous1038853]

Combat indoctrination while articulating broad dissent.

Over time, new generations adopt more valid stances, and archaic models phase out slowly over time.

[Raamm]

You're losing my interest by now. If you can't see that you can't just "dump" people anywhere you like, then I can't help you. I think your way of thinking is rather simplistic and a bit childish. You'll realise at some point in your life that it isn't always as easy as you want it to be.

Except you literally can dump people wherever you like (See Operation Wetback where the U.S government literally dumped people wherever they liked). It's not my fault I can come up with historically relevant points where what I said literally happened. All you've come up with "Is you can't just dump people wherever you like" well guess what you literally can it might not be moral but; a government should always protect the majority of it's citizens well being first and everything else is second.

As for life being easy the only hard part is making the political will to do it and I'm certain that it will be mustered if the terrorist attacks and refugees keep coming.

Maybe if you could offer a good solution to the problem of destroying an ideology without destroying/humiliating/removing the followers of the ideology you'd have a good point. But, you can't so at the end of the day Europe is just one step closer to doing what I suggested, except for Denmark and Norway they're already there.

[Kaleredar]

People that feel happy and secure in their lives usually don't go around blowing others up.

[Hey There Guys its Metro]

I stop caring about it.
Things tend to go away awfully quick once the media isn't shoving it down your throats.

[melodramocracy]

The same way older religions tend to fall into complete obscurity or non-existence. Education helps greatly.

[Deleted]

To neutralize ISIS specifically: berate Islamaphobes, accept Muslims, make sure they feel safe and welcome. The vast majority of them are awesome people and only get recruited by extremists when Westerners paint all of the them with the same brush and they start to feel desperate and unsafe.

To neutralize any dangerous ideology: education, mostly, but carefully, because academia can be poisonous too (see: New Atheism, aka the bad kind of atheism; fields of science that were mostly dominated by men and are slowly being proven full of holes; etc.).

Are you drunk or something ? So they feel unsecure and unsafe... really ?
They have it 10 times better in scandinavian countries and get free education, welfare and living yet turn to extremism in an alaming rate.
There have been 0 painting with the same brush here NONE.
If anything people are now getting VERY fed up with muslims being treated as some special unicorn that never have to be taken into account for what their blood religion teaches and how they live.

Your ideas are flawed. You can't really educate people who doesnt want education and that sees western values as wrong and bad and is supported by their ideology and god.

If you were to stigmatize it like nazism and fascism in every way you put it its just an ideology and its rooting for dominance and oppression.

[Mahourai]

I know there is no crack cocaine ideology but there are parallels to extremist Islam.

Uhh like what, exactly. In what way is inner city drug use comparable to radical Islamic terrorism.

[Waynhim]

How do you neutralize an ideology?

I think one should look to China, and what they are doing to Buddhists, for empirical data on the subject. Funny thing is that what they've been doing, using Buddhists for spare-parts etc., has kind of been on the hush for the countries that rely on trade with them.

[May90]

I think ideologies just die naturally, when they keep consistently proving that they aren't viable in the long run. Pretty much all totalitarian ideologies are like that. The core problem of every kind of totalitarianism is that it doesn't allow much flexibility in people's opinions. But humans are diverse, there are as many opinions as there are people, and when you try to suppress inconvenient opinions, you plant seeds for rebellion in the future, when the critical mass of people tired of oppression arises - or when the collective belief in some inane idea organically leads the system to collapse under its own weight. As such, all these ideologies are bound to die eventually. Fascism died, communism almost died, "radical Islamism" will die eventually too (and I don't mean just ISIS; I mean more peaceful version, as those found in Saudi Arabia or Iran, as well). Every ideology that goes against the way the nature works is bound to die eventually or transform into something based on reality. That's how humans are: we try different approaches before we find something that works. Sometimes we find something that seems to work, but eventually we realize that it is a way to nowhere; then we look for another way. All ideologies change with time, but while some are only adjusted a bit, other ones might die completely or change radically, since the older version are found to not be working.

[Mifuyne]

Uhh like what, exactly. In what way is inner city drug use comparable to radical Islamic terrorism.

They're bad for your health.

[Deleted]

Whoo whoo, all aboard the clue train! Last stop: you.

Perhaps before posting drivel like this, educate *yourself*. Go learn how many Muslims have contributed to science, mathematics, culture, arts, everything. You use their number system, champ (Arabic numbers).

The vast majority of Muslims not only don't see Western values as bad, they embrace them. Hell, the vast majority -- and you can get up off your lazy ass and go read the works of anyone of note who has visited or lived in the Middle East -- completely understand that American citizens are NOT their government, and not to blame for when their government goes indiscriminately bombing their lands, looking for terrorists but all too often killing innocents.

Most Muslims are moderate or outright liberal. Even the conservative ones usually have no ill will towards anyone of other faiths, or of no faith.

You're clueless. Get less clueless, please.

How many that has contributed to science doesnt matter. Arabic numbers did come from India by the way, please update yourself. Living on merits that happened 500 years ago doesnt chance what happens now.
It was a totaly different mindset back then and the religion encouraged to learn science and maths. You really should read up on arabic and persian history.

A majority might not encourage radicalism but it has a HUGE support thats much higher than it should be.


This is from the Washington post by the way.

Just look at this Gallup survey for instance should show you about how "modern" and "well educated" most of them are and were their values lie.

http://media.gallup.com/WorldPoll/PD...racy030607.pdf

79% support Sharia law in Muslim countries. So this is the mindset of the people moving to western countries. 79%...

"For example, Muslims surveyed say they
do not approve of promiscuity and moral decay that
they perceive exists in some Western societies. Many
appear to envision an indigenously rooted model that
incorporates Shariaand democratic values. "

Or you could take this from Worldpublicopinion

World Public Opinion: 61% of Egyptians approve of attacks on Americans
32% of Indonesians approve of attacks on Americans
41% of Pakistanis approve of attacks on Americans
38% of Moroccans approve of attacks on Americans
83% of Palestinians approve of some or most groups that attack Americans (only 14% oppose)
62% of Jordanians approve of some or most groups that attack Americans (21% oppose)
42% of Turks approve of some or most groups that attack Americans (45% oppose)
A minority of Muslims disagreed entirely with terror attacks on Americans:
(Egypt 34%; Indonesia 45%; Pakistan 33%)
About half of those opposed to attacking Americans were sympathetic with al-Qaeda’s attitude toward the U.S.


Does this sound like a peaceful religion without massive problems ?

What the majority thinks doesnt matter if they don't act on it. We are talking numbers that sympathize with violence thats many times higher than in Nazi germany during its hay days.



You call me clueless yet you post numbers that don't hold up in the real world. You better update yourself or just leave the thread as you're just looking like a fool right now.

edit: decided to add some more. 16% of Muslims in Belgium thinks terrorism is acceptable. We all know how that ended right?

[vareck]

German citizen's that were brainwashed by Nazism.

Magic mustache man did not come out of nowhere to trick a huge population of people. He appealed to sentiment that was already there in the aftermath of WW1.

[Tradewind]

Ask Japan imo.