Items in RPGS ~ Static or Random

[anaxie]

You know what I miss in games?

Static wonderful things to discover while exploring. Most games I believe make the worst decision possible which is random rewards or god forbid static rewards that are scaled to your current level. You wind up with heaps of absolute fucking garbage or god forbid a game where crafting and not discovery gets you the exciting items.

Case and point for wonderful games with rewards for discovery

Baldurs Gate / Morrowind / Warcraft 3 / OLD pre MoP WoW / Orginal Resident Evils /Final Fantasys / Parasite Eve

Nowadays games like for example Skyrim you craft you the best stuff. Oblivon bandits in had your Daedric Armor, Modern WoW which is so random that getting the item you want is a chore VS exciting. Resident Evil? Please lets not even get started with this one.

So tell me, what things to you miss that used to exist in your favorite games that was stripped from it over the last decade with each release?

[Morgaith]

The only downside of "planned" loot is the dev time and thought they have to put into making the game.

[anaxie]

The only downside of "planned" loot is the dev time and thought they have to put into making the game.

Not really a downside. I would rather a game where discovery is rewarded VS a faster release where discovery just gets you vendor fodder.

[Alvito]

Not really a downside. I would rather a game where discovery is rewarded VS a faster release where discovery just gets you vendor fodder.

For the developers it sure is a downside. It is also one for some of the players since it makes parts of the game useless to them.

[Arrashi]

Definately missing static items. In morrowind you would scour every hole looking for those deadric pieces. In oblivion every second bandit was wearing whole set. Random loot in RPG's is generally a failure unless handled like in icewind dale (aka this chest will have one of 3 preset items).

[anaxie]

For the developers it sure is a downside. It is also one for some of the players since it makes parts of the game useless to them.

How? in a proper RPG the world shouldn't be a linear experience. The most valued reward could be in an Island off the coast of the first place you started.

and maybe you go crush some weak bandits after you become a malevolent wizard. That doesn't change the fact that the bandits could of came upon a wonderous prize at some point and hide it within their hideout out of sight from people just blazing through and not searching for what might be discovered.

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Definately missing static items. In morrowind you would scour every hole looking for those deadric pieces. In oblivion every second bandit was wearing whole set. Random loot in RPG's is generally a failure unless handled like in icewind dale (aka this chest will have one of 3 preset items).

Dragon age Orgiins while fun. Failed horribly in one big aspect. Scaled unique loot. Fuck That
When you start breaking immersion because you don't want to acquire items and have them be pathetic shit versions you made a fundamental mistake.

[Eleccybubb]

I'd say random in ARPGS like Diablo and PoE but with better RNG. Static in stuff like Skyrim etc.

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How? in a proper RPG the world shouldn't be a linear experience. The most valued reward could be in an Island off the coast of the first place you started.

and maybe you go crush some weak bandits after you become a malevolent wizard. That doesn't change the fact that the bandits could of came upon a wonderous prize at some point and hide it within their hideout out of sight from people just blazing through and not searching for what might be discovered.

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Dragon age Orgiins while fun. Failed horribly in one big aspect. Scaled unique loot. Fuck That
When you start breaking immersion because you don't want to acquire items and have them be pathetic shit versions you made a fundamental mistake.

If they make like one big item like the ring in WoW fair enough. Making a boatload yeah absolutely stupid.

[Fencers]

I like a combination of the two. Static items as a reward can be a balancing nightmare but can also be leveraged to provide a clear progression path. Random itemization is a lazier option that inadvertently allows for mechanical progression relevant to player progression.

There are a few ways to handle this from a design point of view. Though the fundamental issue is one based on the developer's goal to provide useful rewards without breaking the progression schema of the game.

[Shinzai]

I've always preferred static rewards. It was always a part of computer based RPGs for me. You always knew you had to kill dragon X to get Sword of Whatevering, or kill lich Y to get the Shield of Not-Dying and such. I don't mind crafting to an extent, but I vastly prefer the best and most interesting weapons to be lore based, or at least discovered in-world. I like getting a tip from a random villager, that sends me off on a multi-part quest, that ends with some ridiculous final battle and an amazing piece of armor. When I get to the end of a long-ass dungeon, I don't want the final chest to be full of random ingredients and a couple of Swords of Random Stats with +1 to their Vendor Trash stats.

In Baldur's Gate 2 specifically, a large amount of my fun on re-plays was trying to remember what loot drops could be found where and which ones would benefit my new class most. Then I'd trek out to places and go after the loot, with an immense feeling of satisfaction for recovering an amazing item.

However, I don't mind certain levels of randomization. Finding a cool item on a tough enemy that doesn't always give any loot is fine and dandy to an extent. However, I don't want to feel as though I should farm random, garbage mobs to get interesting stuff. I also don't want all cool items to be handed to me from quest chains alone. I want to feel as though I've earned them, or fought for them. Not just completed a conversation chain.

[anaxie]

I'd say random in ARPGS like Diablo and PoE but with better RNG. Static in stuff like Skyrim etc.

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If they make like one big item like the ring in WoW fair enough. Making a boatload yeah absolutely stupid.

WoW was perfect in Cataclysm. Normal and Heroic Versions of items only. abundant loot drops per boss as opposed to the last 3 versions of WoW. Reps were exciting and rewarding for what you could acquire.

What do we have now? 5 mans for WoD launch was the greatest failure WoW has ever had for 5 mans. I can't speak for everyone but the massive loot tables shared between dungeons and random stats was gag worthy, Getting powerful BoEs was based on your gold amount and ALWAYS available rather than extremely limited.

Diablo loot customization. Remove all the customization of gear and make it random AND add it as procs. If Socket procs are "fun" then why were sockets seen as WORK previously. That logic makes little sense.

While games like Morrowind need static hand placed items to reward discovery
MMOs need rewarding gameplay not grinding the exact same item repeatedly with 5+ different versions with RNG built into the RNG of your RNG
and ARPGS should remain as is. That is what those games are designed as grinding loot to fit your style choice.

Thats my 2 cents.

For me Diablo loot in WoW and soulless RNG reward structure killed the game for me and ended my 10 years of playing and looking at the future of Legendary random BoE drops outside raids for just grinding whatever. Well. No thanks.

No reason to go off the beaten path killed Skyrim and everytime I try to play it for a few hours I say to myself. Boy I wish this game was more like morrowind. And then I load up Morrowind and play it in a marathon with endless amusement.

Go figure. I'm weird like that.

[darkwarrior42]

If I have to choose, I choose static/hand placed, but ultimately I like a mixture of both.

More specifically, random can be fun on occasion, but I find it more frustrating than enjoyable when my character is dependent on it.
-Intent of random: "Oh wow! Look at this cool thing I just found!"
-Reality: "Oh, look, I finally got what I need, now my character is functional..... this isn't a cause for celebration, just a mild sense of relief that I finally finished."

[Zeek Daniels]

@op i dont get the warcraft 3 thing. are we talking about those little equips hero characters could have?

I think it really depends on the game your playing. If your playing a looter type game with a million drops then it has to be random, you have that gambler thing going where you think if you kill just a few more mobs youll get that awesome drop.

Then you have those games where awesome drops drop from specific bosses but not at 100% so you farm the boss and eventually you get what your looking for.

I like both ways depending on that game, if its single or multiplayer etc

[anaxie]

@op i dont get the warcraft 3 thing. are we talking about those little equips hero characters could have?

I think it really depends on the game your playing. If your playing a looter type game with a million drops then it has to be random, you have that gambler thing going where you think if you kill just a few more mobs youll get that awesome drop.

Then you have those games where awesome drops drop from specific bosses but not at 100% so you farm the boss and eventually you get what your looking for.

I like both ways depending on that game, if its single or multiplayer etc

Warcraft 3 items are glorious especially in the massive amount of Campaigns like Wanderers of Sorceria or the Rowan Saga.
Finding equips on maps even in the basic campaigns can make your heros absolute power houses. Get no equips and they are sevearly lacking. not to mention tomes.

Case and Point. The Black Temple Level in TFT. If you get Illidan the Orb of Shadows +9 from previous campaign and got him the mask of Death and the Claws of attack +15. say fuck it because hes just going to solo bases.

And stating the items for WC3 is very important considering Warcraft 3 Heroes and items was the foundation that evolved into the MobA genre when Dota was created.

[Chaoslux]

Dark Souls is a really really good example of static drops, combined with its world level design, a seasoned player can start a game and setup their character in the gear they want to use, without any level restrictions. The only difficulty in getting your "ultimate gear set" is actually attaining it. Combined that with a system that doesnt have a clear winner, you can have very interesting repeated playthrough.

An example of a game that tries to emulate that and fails horribly at it would be Dark Souls 2, which railroad players into going through the same early zones with mostly "garbage" items in those, keeping the more interesting options locked in zones that you cannot attain before later in the game. Which leads to a much watered down gameplay. I never feel like replaying it because it's going to start out the same way, and I would have to grind until near the end of the game to finally have the character I wanted, at which point it doesn't matter anymore.

[FobManX]

I like a mix of both. I'd say something like, 80% static and 20% random. Static gives you something to strive for while random gives you a sense of spontaneous excitement.

[Tekkommo]

My only problem with planned or static loot is that it shortens playtime, if you have it random, people will play longer to get the perfect items.

[Alvito]

How? in a proper RPG the world shouldn't be a linear experience. The most valued reward could be in an Island off the coast of the first place you started.

and maybe you go crush some weak bandits after you become a malevolent wizard. That doesn't change the fact that the bandits could of came upon a wonderous prize at some point and hide it within their hideout out of sight from people just blazing through and not searching for what might be discovered.

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Dragon age Orgiins while fun. Failed horribly in one big aspect. Scaled unique loot. Fuck That
When you start breaking immersion because you don't want to acquire items and have them be pathetic shit versions you made a fundamental mistake.

And if the rewards on the island off the coast werent something you wanted because all items were scripted people wouldn't bother going there. As for the developers side of things they do script the stats and drop areas of many things if they did it for all things then it would cause a lot more work and bog down development.

[anaxie]

My only problem with planned or static loot is that it shortens playtime, if you have it random, people will play longer to get the perfect items.

????? I would say good gameplay is adventure discovery and exploration. Not item grinding.

SPECIFICALLY in Single player RPGS

[Tekkommo]

????? I would say good gameplay is adventure discovery and exploration. Not item grinding.

SPECIFICALLY in Single player RPGS

Apologies, I didn't read your post

My opinion is completely opposite now.

[anaxie]

And if the rewards on the island off the coast werent something you wanted because all items were scripted people wouldn't bother going there. As for the developers side of things they do script the stats and drop areas of many things if they did it for all things then it would cause a lot more work and bog down development.

?????

For the first playthrough they WOULD. Unless you read a walkthrough on he first playthrough. which defeats the purpose of playing a game.